NEED speaker help

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:12 pm

The song "The Big Hurt" (which is awesome IMO) By Les Paul and Mary Ford was from the late forties or early '50's, and they're using that effect (the Itchycoo Park effect). I was told you need two reel to reels to do it, but can be faked now digitally (boo, digtal!).

aceonbass · Post by **aceonbass** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:51 pm

"The Big Hurt" was written in 1960 and was performed by Toni Fisher. I should know since it was written by my uncle, Wayne Shanklin. He was also the engineer on the track and spent a month in the studio trying to get that phase shifting effect which I'm pretty sure was the first use of it. It was number two on the Billboard charts only because "El Paso" was number one.

paul_yan · Post by **paul_yan** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:27 am

No fear, Bob and Jerry.
Digital flanging (by Protools or digital effect units) can never truly emulate the exciting sounds achieved by manipulating two reel-to-reel analog tape machines.

It's indeed becoming a lost art ever since the popularization of disk based recording. I sometimes have to explain (like what Robert said) and demonstrate the technique to my assistant engineers who got into the recording business during the past few years and who totally missed the time of analog.

Check out Jimi Hendrix' "Axis:Bold as love". Flange starts from the tom fill before the guitar solo at around 2:44 (if memory serves) and goes on until the end.

jblakey · Post by **jblakey** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:02 am

Maybe it's my Luddite leanings, but I really think there is so much creativity and imagination lost to modern equipment. All of this reminds of an old sound on sound reel to reel I had.. I could get some awesome sounds from that old dinosaur. Got to get that back from my brother. On the topic of past and present.. here's a question.. what do you think sounds better paper speakers or the newer synthetic? A speaker repair shop told me that the old paper kind have a superior tone but not the strength of synthetic. What say you?

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:30 am

Yeah I read that "The Big Hurt" was credited with being the first song to use phase shifting, or flanging, I am very impressed Dane, I first heard that song on WBCN Boston which was one of the first underground stations in the country, was number 3 I think. The DJ who played it introduced it that way, and subsequent times I have heard it it is usually introduced as the first.
Hendrix used a lot of flanging, especially on Electric Ladyland, which is my favorite Hendrix album.
I like the old paper speakers, I have the original 30 watt speakers in my early 70's SVT cabs and they sound great.

ojobob2 · Post by **ojobob2** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:50 am

Bob......aint all speakers paper?

bear · Post by **bear** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 1:10 pm

Aluminum (Hartke & Bullfrog), Kevlar (Peavey), Doped Paper, Hemp (Tone Tubby), paper and aromatic fibers, plenty of other exotics out there that escape me at the moment for speaker cones.

mortivan · Post by **mortivan** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:03 pm

Polypropylene is pretty common.

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:52 pm

OK there's a Les Paul - Mary Ford song from the stone age with that effect. He's on guitar as is she, and she's singing. I'm not sure of the title. He was a studio monster before time began.

paul_yan · Post by **paul_yan** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:38 pm

He's the father of multitrack recording/overdubbing and...we all know this...Les Paul guitars.
Long live the man!

aceonbass · Post by **aceonbass** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 11:00 pm

Unfortunately until the Beatles came along and changed the rules, unless you were the one who actually performed a well known song, the public wasn't generally aware of your contibution to music. Other than a friend of mine who's a major audiophile, I don't know anyone who's aware of my uncle's contribution to music as a songwriter/arranger/engineer. From the time he got his first advance from a record company in '51 till his last credit in '66 as arranger and conductor of the first Mystic Moods Orchestra album(even an out of print CD of this will set you back over $100.00) he was deeply involved in every aspect of record making. An old review of him once referred to him as a kind of early version of Phil Spector.It's recordings of his songs by Desi Arnez, Toni Fisher and Frankie Laine among others that were well known. Unfortunately it was only people inside the industry even then who knew who he was. But to get back to the phasing/flanging effect thing, he is generally credited with coming up with it first which is why it took him so long to get the idea out of his head and onto tape.

squirebass · Post by **squirebass** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:41 am

Interesting Ace!
Just one more good reason to check out the Rick Forum from time to time... Like a box of Chocolates, you never know what your gonna get!

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:07 am

Yeah Owen,
there are a lot of materials speakers are made of nowadays, many people like paper the best, especially guitar players because of the distortion you get when you overdrive them, I like them because to my ears they are more responsive to how I am playing than the tougher materials like Kevlar, etc. but especially with a bass they are also more prone to distorting their shape (the cones actually change their shape, the middle pushes the cone too much and the whole cone bends, they are not as stiff as other materials) so you need to listen to them as you play with a bass, and get to know the sound of a distorting speaker, which is different than a distorting amp. There are two ways to blow a speaker, the voice coils can open from too much heat from distortion, or too much excursion (movement outwards and inwards with the waveform) which results from too much power for a given speaker and physically misaligns the voice coil and magnet assembly (this is rare now though with the tough speakers that are made nowadays.
With a tube amp and paper speakers, the amp becomes part of your instrument, it will sound different by the way you play it, if you push it you will get a pleasant bite out of your amp, which gives you an edgy tone and becomes part of your instrument's sound. I consider my amps as much a part of my sound as my Rics.
Incidently I have two 100 watt RMS. solid state Ampeg fliptops, they have 150 watt RMS speakers in them from the factory, and knowing the way businesses are run nowadays, if they thought they could get away with a 100 watt speaker and save a few bucks on each amp, I'm sure they would have done that, looks like Ampeg still subscribes to the 1-1.5 theory, even with solid state amps.
I know that they are a conservative company.

philco · Post by **philco** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:09 pm

Brian Cheney has an interesting article on loudspeaker cone materials over on his VMPS Audio website. He explains the strengths and weaknesses of each material. For speaker cones he considers graphite to be the best, but he speaks from an audiophile perspective. He holds the patent for ribbon speakers that are driven from both sides of the diaphragm. No cone speaker will ever match that kind of fidelity, but as Bob says, MI loudspeakers have less to do with absolute fidelity.

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 3:28 am

Squirebass: Right you are. There is great strength and enjoyment to be had from pooling the resources and life experiences of others. I learn from this Forum with each new post.