Getting an extremely clean tone?

will_lee · Post by **will_lee** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:36 am

I have a 650 Dakota, and I have had trouble finding an amp that is able to deliver a really clean "shimmering" tone. I have auditioned Oranges, Vox Ac-30, Fender Hot Rod Deville 2x12, and various Mesa Boogies. All of the cleans sound too raspy and "muffled" to me, I'm not sure if it's just because I don't know how to set up the amp.

Anybody have any amp suggestions to get a really clean tone? I'm hoping to just leave the amp clean and use pedals to get the desired overdrive. I'm trying to purchase a tube amp.

Thanks

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 12:31 pm

I'm a bass player first and a guitar player a distant second but I always thought that the old 60's Fender Bandmasters had a really nice clean pretty tone. I had a black faced one from the mid 60's and it had the most beautiful tone, especially with the bright switch on, I would think they would be perfect for that shimmery Ric tone. They are not real loud, I think they are about 40 watts and don't sound very good if overdriven, but if you want a really pretty very clean tone I would definitely check them out, and remember that they are all different, especially when they are 40 years old. I've heard good ones and bad ones. They made two different cab sizes, both with two 12's. the early 60's white ones are also nice but are sky high in price, I like the black faced ones myself for the sound, I've even heard some nice sounding silverfaced Fenders and those are even cheaper.
I think that with the right tech any of these can probably sound good for that kind of tone.
Early bassmans are also popular with guitar players but are a more powerful thicker type sound.

360dave · Post by **360dave** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 3:21 pm

Will Lee....I have a Fender Silver Face Twin Reverb, the so called 'linear' model. This amp can be easily identified by the '135 watts RMS' printed just beneath the speaker jack on the rear of the chassis. Most rockers don't like this model because it can't be 'blackfaced'in order to distort nicely, consequently, they are really cheap. I paid $125 for this one and it works great. It's a 79' model...the king of kleen, country western steel and Telecaster players love em'.
Find one of these for your 650 and I bet you will not be able to make it distort without getting a nosebleed.
All tubes of course.
I also have a 60' Fender Brown Bandmaster.
http://aurs2.homestead.com/DH365.html
but the tone is much more of a great rock and roll blues distorted type.
On this amp, I set the volume on 10, treble 1>3, bass to whatever avoids a 'boomy' response.
Set the guitar volume and tone to suit and this yeilds a very dynamic control over the distortion. Set up this way, you can go from clean to distorted simply by digging in the pick a little harder.

will_lee · Post by **will_lee** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 5:03 pm

David... I looked for the Silver Face on ebay.. and it was going for 935! ouch! Do you think that I should just go with something really great, like an Orange head+cab and then use an acoustic simulator? maybe that would get a really clean tone...

360dave · Post by **360dave** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 5:42 pm

Will...I just looked at Ebay and the amp you saw is the wrong model. It says Twin Reverb but the chassis electronics is quite different. The reason it costs more is because this is the more desireable model. Look here...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2569850765&indexURL=5&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting
This still is not the correct model although it looks almost exactly like it. Look at the picture and notice in the center of the chassis where the speakers plug in....right under that jack the model you want says '135 watts RMS'. Earlier, I said '125 watts'....wrong, it is 135 watts.
I'll send you a picture of mine on private email.

will_lee · Post by **will_lee** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:45 pm

Ah, thanks for the clarification David. Its still quite a sum, for 775. I wish I could audition one before I just randomly buy one off of ebay.

360dave · Post by **360dave** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 7:13 pm

Will, you can go to a music store and play the Twin Reverb Reissue and it will give you a pretty good demo of what the 'linear' amp sounds like.
Hope you got the pictures ok....remember, the one you want says '135 watts RMS' below the speaker jack just like my picture shows.

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:08 am

Will: Here are a few comments that may help you in your search. Most of us have been through a similiar quest, more than once!

First, in order to get a good tube sound, you are going to have to spend some money. Every once in a while a super deal will come along but not often. $775 US is not over the top for an amplifier you will have a lifetime.

Second, as it turns out, "shimmering", at least in my books (360dave feel free to set me straight) is a tube effect that is produced by a degree of distortion. What we call the clean amplifier sound is often distortion. The very "electronically" clean sounds often appear harsh or low in fidelity to the ear. To me shimmering means warmth. Amplifiers can sound very different depending on the tubes used.

Third, For somewhere around $650 US you can purchase a Canadian made Traynor amplifier called the Traynor YCV40A, or you can get a YCV40 and put in a Celestion Vintage 30 speaker. This amplifier has a great clean sound, allows for plenty of shimmering, is built rugged with a great warranty and has lots of nice features for a 40 Watt amplifier at this price.

Please let us know what you decide. My 2 cents.

ted_williams · Post by **ted_williams** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:23 am

I second Peter's YCV40 recommendation. It's clean channel is clear and bright. Depending on the amount of sustain you're looking for, you may need to add a touch of compression.

big_g · Post by **big_g** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 1:23 pm

One of the biggest differences in tube amp tone is the output tubes. If you want a cleaner tone you need tubes with better heat dissipation plates, and a bottle base combination capable of holding a harder vacuum.

Higher vacuum tubes allow for more output before clipping, softer vacuum tubes have more and softer warmer distortion. You will find that the good tube suppliers will grade their tubes based on how clean sounding they are.

Make sure that you by them bias matched too, if they are tightly matched based on tube bias that will allow for a cleaner sound. Any amp you buy needs to have the bias checked when you buy hotter, cleaner tubes too, this is to ensure that you first, have the most your amp can get out of the tubes and secondly, that your amp is operating within its manufactured specs with them.

dougp · Post by **dougp** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:14 am

I don't know about a 650, but I very much like the sound of a 360/12 through a blackface Bandmaster. I find it more than capable of getting a good clean sound, as long as it's not cranked. Also a great amp for recording "vintage" bass tones (but underpowered for live bass playing).

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:14 pm

Pre-CBS Black faced Bandmasters are the prettiest sounding amps I've ever heard, I would think that they would be the perfect match for a Ric, especially a 12 string. I was told to watch out for the first post CBS years, 66, 67, maybe 68, that they changed the circuits in the amps so they would be more reliable, but in the process ruined the sound. They supposedly changed back to the old circuits again after a few years, I think some of the early silver faced Fenders sound pretty too. If you are after that shimmery Ric sound, I don't think you could go wrong with the right old Fender tube amp.
I know nothing about Ric tube amps, there are a few on Ebay right now. But I'm sure those would also have that sound, after all they were made for Rics.

jps · Post by **jps** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:14 pm

A couple of years ago I had a '66 BF Bandmaster that I sent to Kendrick Amplifiers to do some mods to. When it came back it was truly awesome sounding. I had him recap everything, replace the dinky output transformer with his biggest one that he makes, replace the output tube sockets with mil spec ceramic ones to accept KT66s, replace the RCA tremolo jack with a 1/4" jack, add an on/off switch for the tremolo on the speed control, make the tremolo work on both channels and replace the power cord with a 3 prong grounded one.

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:24 am

Will, I've commented on this type of topic previously. In my experience, a 1968-1969 Fender Silverface Twin Reverb or Dual Showman Reverb/Showman Recverb provides the best 12-string sound by virtue of their Middle tone controls. An early 1968 Bandmaster (not Reverb) that I had lacked this feature and did not provide the fullness of the others.

A relatively inexpensive alternative is a Crate GX-40C+; in spite of its 8" speakers, this little solid state amp can mimic the TR and DSR sound to an incredible degree (read my earlier threads for more details on it). My 12s sound great through it.

I echo the previous recommendations to check out amps at music stores if possible.

big_g · Post by **big_g** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:43 am

An Ampeg VT-22 2x12" combo, with clean, new tubes, has to be one of the cleanest sounding combos around. Interesting sounding power tubes the 7027A's used to be hard to find but thery're quite easy to find now. More transparent bottom end than the 6L6GC's, IMHO.

You don't see 'em that much, but they're usually not that expensive when you do track them down.