Type of Pickup Coil Wire in 50's-60's?

[ocduff]

Hi folks -

I've searched the forum far and wide - and am double posting this question in both this, and the Every Little Thing forum.

I can't find any solid, verified information on exactly the type of wire used in Ric's and how they were wound.

From what I know, the pickups were most likely wound with 44 gauge wire. Very fine stuff. Also, I understand they were wound on the weekends? Interesting. Also, I am assuming that they were handwound.

It seems uncertain whether it was Formvar insulated wire, or Plain Enamel. Both common for the day. Of course, lots of other types were used - all which yield a different tone.

Also - it seems outputs varied quite a bit - I'm assuming 3.8K for late 50's, then 7.5K for mid 60's. Anyone have the actual numbers from the original pickups? Please let me know if there are any other sources I should refer to.

Thanks in advance!

Owen

[johnallg]

John Hall has stated, I believe on the RIC forum, that after checking records, they always have used #44 wire. I do not know what the coating has always been. Maybe Sergio knows.

I though 60s pickups were 6.0k until the high gain types came in and were the 7.5k ones. I also though late 50s and early 60s pickups were 5k.

They were all hand wound for many years until RIC got the computerized winder they use now, but I am not sure of the time frame. When the new Toasters came out (7.4k scatterwound), they are still machine wound, but with a randomized program to simulate scattered hand winding.

I hope this info helps. Hopefully others can fill in more info, or correct any of mine if wrong.

[soundmasterg]

I too have heard the 44 gauge comments from Mr. Hall, but then I've also heard from quite a few people who have seen lots of old RIC pickups such as Fralin, Lollar, Don Butler, etc., that some of the old RIC pickups were 42 gauge. Who to believe? Some of these pickups those guys have seen could have been rewound of coruse, and maybe RIC's records from back then aren't accurate too....like I said who knows. I've never heard anything definitive on the wire type used either as far as the insulation is concerned. I had a friend rewind some toasters hotter for me and used 43 gauge PE in one, and 44 gauge formvar in another. I haven't tried them yet though.

Greg

[ocduff]

Thanks for the replies. Lots of info out there - and thanks for that link. While informative, "I don't know about the 50's..." came up several times. So I still don't feel the subject has been completely edified. I sure would like to get my hands on a few original 50's toasters. My suspicion - and I may be wrong - but I suspect the 50's 3.8K output pickups were wound with 42 gauge. I just can't imagine why, at that low a resistance, why 44 gauge would be chosen - they must sound incredibly weak. There are so many references to the employees winding pickups in those days "winding the bobbin full of wire". That wouldn't happen with 44 gauge until about 10,000 turns - yeilding like 15K or so, perhaps. And then, 3.8K could be achieved with only 2,000 turns or so. Every bobbin created by companies in the old days, from Fender to Gibson, to Guild to Mosrite, to Gretsch - the bobbins were always filled with wire. They were designed to be, and a specific wire guage was chosen for each bobbin. Of course, this rule may not have always been followed. It may well have been 44 gauge, and most likely was. No doubt 44 was used later when the outputs went above 7K in the 60's.

There is so much conflicting information out there - not by any entity in particular, but just in general. I'm just trying to satisfy my own curiousity. Also, I've heard a lot of the old Rickenbackers from the 50's and they really sounded different than the reissues I've owned. I'm not going to make my own conclusions and experiences and state them as gospel, just try and figure out the 50's toasters.

My c58 should be arriving any day now. I'm sure at some point I'll be fiddling with the pickups. I'll be searching for some originals too. I don't think Rickenbacker has to worry about anyone copying their pickups. There's so little demand, and I don't think Ric owners swap out pickups like Fender owners do. That said, if Fender handwound the pickups in their $4000 Masterbuilt guitars, then no one would be swapping them out. I just don't think it's economically feasible for a company to do so, and thus, creates an aftermarket for such parts.