Bandmember's costs in a band?

[jdogric12]

Now then...there's been some loose talk about drummers in this thread...I've played bass, guitar and drums in a lot of bands, and drumming is by far the heaviest work load...not just the playing, but the setting up and tearing down, loading and unloading, etc...when I play a drumming gig, I have to start a couple of hours before the rest of the band, humping my gear into the jeep...I have to get to the gig at least a half hour before anyone else to be considered 'on time', and I'm still dragging very heavy things through my front door long after everyone else is home in bed. Drummers are not respected in this culture as they should be, and without them, you'd all be singing 'Kumbya' around a campfire, and the girls would have nothing to dance to...

There, I've said it...

+1 for sure

[jps]

Democracy can be a pain in the (I gotta watch it here, I got censored earlier this week for this one..) 'rear end' (boy, that feels stupid...I sound like a boy scout from Utah)

Dane, try this!

[jingle_jangle]

Dat's da shiznit, mos' def(initely).

[squirefan01]

I totally agree with the democratic aspect of the band. In this particular case, I am not in love with the music but appreciate the ability just to play original jazz that's not bad and play with pretty good musicians, and learn A LOT. It's not at the top of my list of things I need to dedicate my time to (family first, job second, music third). So, while I learn alot from this experience I am glad to defer to the guy I have called the leader here. I can imagine a future endeavor that I will take that will include my working as a part of the living organism of a band that plays music that I am helping to create and really expresses my being and the music I love. Until then I am happy to defer to somebody else who wants to live their dream.

BUT, I will not be unfairly manipulated and will take issue with anybody else around me being manipulated. That is something that I have never had any patience for, and in this case it brings out a much more verbal version of me then folks are used to. I have no problem moving on if necessary.

This guy is really a piece of work, and in his mind I think he just accepts himself as a nutty artist-type who can live in his own world. As long as that does not negatively affect those around him I am cool with that but when it does he's going to lose out in the end.

[jingle_jangle]

BUT, I will not be unfairly manipulated and will take issue with anybody else around me being manipulated. That is something that I have never had any patience for, and in this case it brings out a much more verbal version of me then folks are used to. I have no problem moving on if necessary.

This guy is really a piece of work, and in his mind I think he just accepts himself as a nutty artist-type who can live in his own world. As long as that does not negatively affect those around him I am cool with that but when it does he's going to lose out in the end.

Sounds like the manipulation has already started, Greg. The question comes down to, "where do you draw the line"?

[squirefan01]

Right Paul.

What I am doing now is making sure that all of us in the band are communicating our feelings clearly and openly to keep any individual manipulation from happening. I think I am not the only one in a "high alert" mode right now so the coming weeks should be interesting.

[wayang]

That guy is the living definition of what Castaneda referred to as a pinche tiranito...

[jimk]

Dane & Brian, what you guys have said about drummers is really true. I'm just now finding that out, since taking drum lessons.

JimK

[paologregorio]

Carrying drum equipment's gotten somewhat easier over the past 20 years or wo wrt all the rolling cases and other gizmos available to drummers (along with those that have become available to players of other instruments), yet it's still definitely the most labor-intensive!

In the group I'm in, Smiling face down, we try to do our best to accomodate the increased workload the drummer has wrt lugging gear; when we book rehearsal studio time, I always make sure there's a nice kit included in the package, so that all our drummer has to do is bring his stick and cymbal bag. At rehearsals, we always try to help each other lug in gear, and the drummer's no exception. Even when we've had cantankerous drummers in the past we've done this, and with our current drummer, who's become a good friend as well as a bandmate, we're all too happy to grab as much drum gear on the way in and way out as possible! When our drummer pulls up at a gig, we form a drum kit carrying caravan. Our singer Meatball is especially helpful with this; he's defrinitely not of the the prima donna singer type.

Our drummer appears to be a whiz at getting his gear set up and torn down quickly btw. Having a four piece kit helps I'm sure.

[paologregorio]

Urban Dictionary; I like it!

Oh, and for everyone who's following the UK confluence and Aitch Summer UK tour threads, yet unfamiliar with some of the slang terms, here are a couple of handy online dictionaries:

http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/

http://www.koalanet.com.au/australian-slang.html

[ozover50]

We do the same, Paul. We always help each other lug gear in and out and our drummer always helps me because I usually have extra gizmos to pack up afterwards and tend to be the last one ready to move.

The last thing you want to do is stand around yacking with other members while another is schlepping his backside off.... not good form at all IMO!

[whojamfan]

Greg, maybe emailing a link to this thread to your "leader" might open his eyes a little. It might give him a little reality check about what he's doing, and how it may very well lead to the end of what you are all hoping to accomplish. Or, it might really just chap his hide. Either way, he's hearing the message from a group of musicians who have been there, done that, and still do.

I was in a band for 3 rehearsals and a show where 2 people fought constantly to be the leader(rock star)and ended up disbanding the group. That was really a nightmare, and it had enormous potential of becoming a successful recording and touring act if they both had left the egos at home. My point is, no matter what the potential is,if all of the joy is sucked out of it by people concerned with themselves first, and music a distant second, what's the point?

Yes, drummers do get the brunt of the jokes, just because they have 3 eyes and webbed feet doesn't mean they should be slagged

I've always had situations where we all, especially the singer, helped the drummer lug his gear and set it up. We would walk in to a place, be it rehearsal or a gig, and by the time the amps were set up and the instruments tuned, the drums were ready to go. Breakdown went just as quick, and once it was locked in, we were in and out of there in no time at all.

Joe Strummer of the Clash said it best-"You are only as good as your drummer" I couldn't agree more. A great drummer can make mediocre players sound amazing, but the best players will sound awful with a lousy drummer.

[squirefan01]

That's a great idea Mike. I just read through the thread again to make sure I didn't steer the conversation unfairly in any certain direction, and I don't think I did. So I'll keep the link to the thread in my pocket as it might come in handy someday.

Here's another thing that bugged me all day today. The other night we go out for a few beers after practice. The new horn player we have (who was not with us for beers) is a real pro whose living is music, so he needs to get paid. I respect that and appreciate that he's playing with us and seems to enjoy the music, and we sound great with him in the mix. So anyways, I bring up about getting paying gigs and how I don't care about getting paid (being the amateur that I am) so as long as it's enough to pay the horn guy and fund the band a little I'm cool with it. The leader starts talking about how he "needs to be convinced that people will pay for this music" and if we have to play for free then so be it and we'll just have to pay the horn player. I took issue with that and said that we have to get paying gigs so this guy can get paid. I just don't get it. Again, he wants us to chip in to pay a guy and play for free. It's probably not that much to pay if we split it up but it just doesn't seem right to me. When we recruited this guy the leader told him we were getting paying gigs, and if he wants to back away from that then I don't think he should make us all responsible for that decision.

I started to write him another ****** off email today but decided to think it over a bit, wondering if maybe it was reasonable to get one free gig at least with all of the musicians, pay the horn player then expect to get paid after that. Is that realistic or again just BS and fear-based thinking on the leader's part?

In talking to the rhythm guitar player who's been with the leader for years, it seems that this is the leader's mentality, always coming up with excuses to fail and not get out to play, and expecting everybody else to fund him. So his songs are 10+ years old now and have hardly ever been played live. Many musicians have come and gone in his band in these years, and I'm not sure that he gets it at all.

You guys have probably all been there before and I really appreciate your insight. Thanks!

(This would certainly be an eye opening thread for him if he gets the chance to read it someday)

[jimk]

Greg, some of what you're saying about getting paid resonates a little with me. I'm the only guy in my band who's (trying) to make a living out of my music, be it teaching, or performing with the band, or sometimes performing out on my own. In my band, we always decide collectively whether we need to stash the whole performance fee in the bank account, or pay ourselves. If we need to stash the money, it's jolly well for some good reason; PA equipment upgrades, recording sessions, and the like. We have turned down numerous freebies because we all feel like we've paid our dues. And sometimes we've turned down gigs when the money wasn't enough to cover gas, even.

But playing a gig for free and then turning around and asking the band members to shell out for the horn player is just nuts. You wouldn't pay a club owner or festival promoter for the chance to play at his club or festival. In such a ludicrous situation, our band would just walk away laughing.

This band leader your telling us about is a real piece of work, man. I wouldn't stand for it. And he wonders why his band has a revolving door, I'll bet.

JimK

[whojamfan]

Greg, regarding your "leader", don't let him lead you down his path. Like Jim says, there's a reason for a revolving door of a group. This persons priorities sound completely self indulgent and non productive in terms of actually having a functioning band. What are his goals, plans, or agendas for this situation, or does he even know? Are all of the decisions going to be made by him and you just have to be cool with that?

If you make a deal with someone, it's on you. If he told the horn player he would get paid, he needs to pay him. This goes for every other thing concerning the band that is not agreed upon by the band. If the group is still just coming together and this kind of drama is going on, what do you think will happen down the road when you start getting some gigs that actually pay? Will a pro lighting and sound crew show up because he promised them money so he could look good?

As far as the band itself, the players have to come to an agreement as to the expectations you all have concerning the band. Do you want to get together weekly and play and do the occasional show, rehearse a few nights a week and play every weekend you can, or try to go on the road supporting a recording? Of course, there are other scenarios, but everybody needs to be on the same sheet of music. This way, there's no problems down the road with somebody crying about how being in the group has "held them back."

Also, as far as money, you really have to be realistic about it. Check around about bands that are doing the amount of playing that you want to do, and figure on that's what you could possibly make once you are as known as they are. There will be free and play for part of the door gigs initially, as well as other functions that will serve you well publicity wise. Again, you have to figure out what you are collectively committing to, and accept it from the gate that there will be costs. Probably the best way to digest that is to think of your band as the people you get together with to enjoy a common interest, like ATV riding or Golf. You don't think of those types of activities in terms of money other than to plan it, as it's an accepted cost of enjoying the fun.

It should really be about enjoying yourself, not this guys agenda.