Fragile: Tony Kaye's presence?

[walker]

Although Chris Squire has certainly voiced no regrets about Rick Wakeman becoming a Yes member, he did remark in an interview (circa 80's - 90's ?) that he regretted the subsequent dismissing of Tony Kaye from the band upon Wakeman's arrival. In the 'Time And A Word' Yes documentary, Rick talks about the rigors of 'learning the parts' as the newest member, and the example he gave was a segment from 'Heart Of The Sunrise.' This makes me wonder - who's part was he learning? Was it something that Kaye had originally done, or was he given a basic chord arrangement by the band and had to figure out his own parts? Was Kaye in the band for any of the creative process for songs that ended up on Fragile? I don't believe that Kaye is given any songwriting credit on the album, but I haven't looked at the credits lately. I don't know if anyone outside of Yes would know these particulars, but it is something I've wondered about.

[seyesbass]

When Rick joined Yes they went out on the road during the making of Fragile and it must have been a busy time for him regardless of his prowess on the keys.
Theres a clip of Rick describing how he couldnt remember parts of HOTS ie; "is it my bit now?"..."no one else is playing it must be me!" kind of situation.
Because they rushed out to do gigs (probably already booked before he joined) whilst making Fragile and then out again straight after the release of the album,Rick had all the other stuff to remember too.I think its more a case of cramming all that rehearsal and then (pints of bitter notwithstanding remember) going out with a new band and getting the odd mental block rather than Tony Kaye having written parts of Fragile.
Case in point,I have a tape I recorded from the Free Trade Hall Manchester of one of those gigs (a month prior to the release of Fragile) and Rick carries on doing the intro "stabs" to Perpetual Change whilst Jon is singing "and there you are..." .

As to whether Tony was ever involved in the initial runs or rehearsals of bits of the Fragile songs is something that only the Yes men would know and a similar case was put by Patrick Moraz years later regarding parts of the GFTO album which he claimed to have been involved in writing.

Interesting stuff and worth someone delving into if they can get Tony Kaye to talk about that time.

[Blackstar]

Related Q I hope: Was it Kaye or Wakeman on Yes' cover of "America"?

[FretlessOnly]

America was recorded in early '72 I believe, so it was several months after Fragile. So, it was the pre-Superman Wakeman (or maybe the cape was just at the dry cleaners):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ia8_Lav32c

[walker]

Very likely that it is Wakeman on the recording, but I have a booted version recorded live in 1971 with Tony Kaye. Just playing Devil's advocate - there could be a chance that it is Kaye on the recording, and 'America' just might not have been released until after Fragile. Since it never made it onto a studio album proper, it could have sat around for awhile until they figured out what to do with it. Also note that video is just a lip-synch, not an actual studio session. Pretty noticeable that WakeMan is hardly playing a lick of anything legitimate and just hamming it up for the camera. My money is on WakeMan being on the recording, but it would be interesting to know what the Yesmen themselves have to say (or have already said) about it. Another aspect is what true keyboardophiles say about the style of playing - whether it sounds like Tony or Rick.

[walker]

Another interesting thing to note - and a good excuse to start an unsubstantiated rumor - at the 6:28 minute of that video, there's a guy in the background of the studio shot that looks a lot like Jimmy Page.

[walker]

The more I analyze this song, the more it's starting to sound like Tony Kaye on the recording to me. The chord vamps in the beginning sections of the song (most of which are missing from this video footage - consult the studio version) are very similar to the style played on 'Yours Is No Disgrace.' Also, I think it's odd that there's NO keyboard solo in this entire 9-10 minute song. That entire solo break is all Stevie. Wakeman was brought on because of his virtuoso skills and I find it hard to fathom that there wouldn't be a keyboard solo in a song that he was actually on - especially when there's about 4 minutes in the middle of the song for him to share solo-time with Howe. Not even a little quick arpeggiated riff here & there. The only arpeggiated keyboard run is the melody which is harmonized by the guitar. And that's a specific melody line, not a solo.

[just_bassics]

I'm not certain that I remember it correctly, but Wakeman's agreement with A&M Records may have prevented him from performing on a studio version of a Paul Simon tune. There was a lot of restrictions back in the day since Wakeman was under contract to a label other than Atlantic. For instance, I remember reading once that a track from "Six Wives" was to be Rick's solo piece on Fragile, but A&M prevented it, so Rick had to do an arrangement of a Brahms piece in it's place.

I even remember reading once that Bruford may have recorded some of the keyboard parts on that cover version of America. I remember reading that because it just made no sense to me. But, Yes had been covering that tune live for some time, so a few guys may have had a hand in it's arrangement over time. It certainly is a showcase piece for Steve Howe, where he puts his old Hayman 2020 guitar through it's paces. I always thought it was the 175 until I got his book "The Steve Howe Guitar Collection".

Sorry I can't be more specific, I've got a few books around here on the subjects (Close to the Edge; The Story of Yes, by Chris Welch and Yesstories) but can't remember where I put them. None of them go into enough detail about my favorite subject, composition and arranging. I wish these guys would all write books detailing those sessions while (if) anyone remembers them, like Chris did with his FOOW DVD. I love the details!

As much as I love Rick Wakeman's massive contributions to Yes music, I miss Tony Kaye's organ playing. He was a great rock organist in his time, before synths pushed all pianists and organ players into the generic "keyboard player" role.

[FretlessOnly]

I also prefer Tony Kaye's work to that of Wakeman, but I have in front of me my copy of Yesterdays, and every track other than America is credited to Kaye. The credits for America have Wakeman on keyboards in contrast to all the other tracks that have Kaye on organ.

The liner notes on the record sleeve (not the cover, the greensleeve) indicate that America "was first recorded for 'The Age of Atlantic' album, which was released in July '72." So, no mention of when it was recorded, but it's hard to believe that Wakeman would be outed by a record company for playing on a recording that he had contractual stipulations not to.

[just_bassics]

Hard to believe? Not for me, not when lawyers get involved...

Yes, of course, were signed to Atlantic Records. RW was under contract to A&M, up to and including TORMATO. The specifics of the arrangement are probably too far back in memories and pages of legal contracts, but it was clear that A&M didn't want Rick contributing too much in the way of solo compositions for another label. There had to be some stipulations in the compromise. So it would be no surprise to me that A&M wouldn't want one of their own stars featured on another labels promotional compilation record. "Age of Atlantic" is the first release of "America" and it was precisely that, a promo for Atlantic.

On "America" (All quotes from various interviews compiled in the Tim Morse book "Yesstories)

Jon, 1975: "The idea for the beginning of "America" came when I was walking past the kitchen door one day and heard Tony messing around with a phrase. I said "Hold it!"."

Steve, 1993: "Rick wasn't terribly interested in doing this track, so consequently Bill Bruford plays the mellotron on the end, which is quite astounding."

Bill, 1994: "I remember playing wah wah conga drums on that."

On "Cans & Brahms":
Rick, 1973: "Cans & Brahms was dreadful, but contractual hang-ups prevented me from writing an original solo track."

Chris Welch, "Close to the edge": "Rick Wakeman's arrival in Yes made headlines in the music press but behind the scenes there were protracted negotiations between various record companies."

Peter Banks often claimed that he had the original idea for Roundabout, Patrick Moraz made claims to portions of Awaken, etc... When a band has a long history with changing members, bits and pieces from the past are bound to surface and develop later on... perhaps without full credit always being given to the original idea. Certainly, (to address Mark's original post) since Rick joined with the composition of Fragile well underway, there are possibly many bits on the record that Tony may have had an original hand in creating, but if he actually composed any of them, I've never heard him lay claim to the fact.

It is a shame, IMO, that the Organist and Pianist in modern music were replaced with "Keyboardist". The art of properly playing an organ seems to be a lost one these days. Listen to "The Prophet" intro from Time and a word for one example.

[walker]

Fascinating stuff, Jim. Unfortunate how legal parameters set in place to protect music rights end up being an obstacle for the musicians to actually create music.

I found Jon's quote to be very revealing. The more I listened to America, the more it really does sound like Kaye's work. Whether he actually played on the Atlantic Records anniversary version, or Wakeman (or Bruford even) repro'd his parts may continue to be a mystery.

[FretlessOnly]

I guess what I meant to say was:

I find it hard to believe that Atlantic would list Wakeman as playing on America if, in fact, it was Tony Kaye, especially knowing that listing Wakeman would possibly cause legal problems for Atlantic. Whether the song was a cover or not, the keyboard part is an original composition as it has nothing to do with the original. At least some lawyers could spend/earn some money arguing that.

[ram]

Another interesting thing to note - and a good excuse to start an unsubstantiated rumor - at the 6:28 minute of that video, there's a guy in the background of the studio shot that looks a lot like Jimmy Page.

Not too surprising.... I believe Chris was/is chummy with some of the Zep boys. He and a few others opened for the show in England and wasn't there something like XYZ band that never went anywhere??

[seyesbass]

Yes played America in another looser but similar version with Tony Kaye until Wakeman joined.
I saw them perform it at Manchester during the Yes Album tour along with some bass solo stuff that eventually ended up as part of The Fish live.
Theres a version of the "Kaye America" on The Word Is Live" CD set from Crystal Palace Bowl from around the Yes Album time.
The track on CD and record....
Atlantic needed a track for their follow up to The Age Of Atlantic sampler LP.
The album was called "The New Age Of Atlantic" and thats Wakeman Squire Brufford Howe and Anderson playing America on that album.

This was when Yes were putting Close To The Edge together and I dont think they had a track for the sampler so they recorded America.
The track wasnt released on a Yes record until 1975 when Atlantic put out Yesterdays and as part of the promotion of that album Yes included
"Sweet Dreams" in their Relayer tour set.

[just_bassics]

Another interesting thing to note - and a good excuse to start an unsubstantiated rumor - at the 6:28 minute of that video, there's a guy in the background of the studio shot that looks a lot like Jimmy Page.

If you mean the guy on the sofa, that's Bill Bruford, I believe!