A number of respected members of the forum have lamented the sometimes dull sound of Roger McGuinn's 370/12RM, on the rare occasions when he plays it in concert. I just came across this link from earlier this year, on which Roger plays a Jetglo RM:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyCjPe6i3S0
It sounds to me either like he isn't using the onboard compressor, or he's jettisoned his beloved JangleBox. The sound is muddy, to say the least, with none of that signature chime we associate with McGuinn.
I last saw him in concert in 2007, and, at that show, his 370 sounded fine. This was when I first heard of an invention called the JangleBox. Right after he picked up his RM to play "Turn! Turn! Turn!" he yelled out to his roadie, "Kick on the JangleBox!"
I'm wondering if anyone has any insights into why McGuinn is no longer using a compressor when he plays his 370's. Some time ago, Beatbyrd, who has been to several of Roger's shows, speculated that it was because he spent most of his concerts playing his Martin 7-string and didn't want to be bothered with effects for the electric 12. Too bad, because when I first saw him, back in 1997, he played his 370/12 for the whole show, and he jangled like there was no tomorrow!
What? No Jangle?
Re: What? No Jangle?
I've been to 5 McGuinn concerts over the last few years. I think that's about enough for me. The essence of the early Byrds was that sparkling 12 string jangle. I have become more and more disappointed with Roger's sound and performance with each concert I have attended. He has gotten sloppier in his playing on the Rick, as well as dialed down all of the highs. This last concert, with Marty Stuart and his Fabulous Superlatives, was quite a contrast. Roger's guitar was very muddy sounding and he missed a lot of notes. This was most apparent on the solos to TTT and Feel a Whole Lot Better. The Rick needed to take charge on these songs and it didn't.
Marty played Clarence White's B Bender for almost every song. It's the best sounding Tele I have ever heard. His guitarist, Kenny, also played a Tele that sounded great. The drummer and bass player for Marty's band are both excellent players and singers. The 4 of them played and sang Byrds songs better than the Byrds ever sounded, either on record or live. Roger's 12 string was the weakest link. If the Rick had sounded the way it was intended to sound, the concert would have been absolute Byrds heaven; even with the weak playing. Fortunately, the high end of the Telecasters and the very strong harmonies offered by Marty and his band saved the show.
For some reason, I seem to recall hearing that the McGuinns now believe that a jangling Rick 12 string damages older peoples' ears and makes them uncomfortable. I don't remember if I heard this from Camilla herself, a post on some internet forum, or from a fan. It may or may not be based in truth. I honestly don't recall. My concert experiences would back this up, though.
I'm not crazy about the Martin 7 string. It sounds OK, but not enough for me to buy a concert ticket. Without the jangling Rick 370, there's no need for me to see him again. I'll be seeing Marty's band again, as soon as they roll through SoCal again.
Check out the sound of 'Clarence':
(Marty, the scarf has to go!)
Marty played Clarence White's B Bender for almost every song. It's the best sounding Tele I have ever heard. His guitarist, Kenny, also played a Tele that sounded great. The drummer and bass player for Marty's band are both excellent players and singers. The 4 of them played and sang Byrds songs better than the Byrds ever sounded, either on record or live. Roger's 12 string was the weakest link. If the Rick had sounded the way it was intended to sound, the concert would have been absolute Byrds heaven; even with the weak playing. Fortunately, the high end of the Telecasters and the very strong harmonies offered by Marty and his band saved the show.
For some reason, I seem to recall hearing that the McGuinns now believe that a jangling Rick 12 string damages older peoples' ears and makes them uncomfortable. I don't remember if I heard this from Camilla herself, a post on some internet forum, or from a fan. It may or may not be based in truth. I honestly don't recall. My concert experiences would back this up, though.
I'm not crazy about the Martin 7 string. It sounds OK, but not enough for me to buy a concert ticket. Without the jangling Rick 370, there's no need for me to see him again. I'll be seeing Marty's band again, as soon as they roll through SoCal again.
Check out the sound of 'Clarence':
(Marty, the scarf has to go!)
It's a Byrd, it's a playin'..........
'73 4001 MG
'09 360/12 FG
'10 360/6 FG
'09 360/12 FG
'10 360/6 FG
Re: What? No Jangle?
Insightful, indeed. It's been about two years since you posted that, so thanks for refreshing my memory.
Re: What? No Jangle?
Hi:
I was the one who spoke with Roger's wife, Camilla, about two years ago in Connecticut before his show. Among the many questions I asked was: " Why doesn't Roger play more songs with his RM 370-12?"
As most of us now know, for years, Roger mostly plays his Martin 7-string guitar. I've been to his concerts in recent years when he played the Rick for only 4 songs!!!!
Anyway, Camilla told me the answer: They both feel that the 12-string Rickenbacker is too shrill, that it will hurt or damage the ears of the audience!!!! That is why he will use it for one song and then put it down for awhile!!!
Now, whether that is the real reason, I do not know. BUT, that is what she told me!!!!!
I was the one who spoke with Roger's wife, Camilla, about two years ago in Connecticut before his show. Among the many questions I asked was: " Why doesn't Roger play more songs with his RM 370-12?"
As most of us now know, for years, Roger mostly plays his Martin 7-string guitar. I've been to his concerts in recent years when he played the Rick for only 4 songs!!!!
Anyway, Camilla told me the answer: They both feel that the 12-string Rickenbacker is too shrill, that it will hurt or damage the ears of the audience!!!! That is why he will use it for one song and then put it down for awhile!!!
Now, whether that is the real reason, I do not know. BUT, that is what she told me!!!!!
Re: What? No Jangle?
Karl, I think it's more likely a case of: if Camilla feels that way, then they both feel that way. I get the sense that she runs McGuinn, Inc.kvalois wrote:Hi:
I was the one who spoke with Roger's wife, Camilla, about two years ago in Connecticut before his show. Among the many questions I asked was: " Why doesn't Roger play more songs with his RM 370-12?"
Anyway, Camilla told me the answer: They both feel that the 12-string Rickenbacker is too shrill, that it will hurt or damage the ears of the audience!!!! That is why he will use it for one song and then put it down for awhile!!!
Now, whether that is the real reason, I do not know. BUT, that is what she told me!!!!!
Roger (apparently in the witness protection program) would have no idea what the public thinks. If he actually DID talk to the fans, he'd know that the Rickenbacker 12 string defines his legacy and that's what most of the fans come to hear. I just can't believe that anyone buys tickets thinking, "Gee, I hope he does a ton of sea shanties", or "Did you hear the nice job Roger did on 'Pretty Boy Floyd?'.
At least one of them just doesn't get it. Nah, it's both. This last concert did it for me. If I want to hear him playing sea shanties on the Martin, I'll go to the Folk Den for free.
It's a Byrd, it's a playin'..........
'73 4001 MG
'09 360/12 FG
'10 360/6 FG
'09 360/12 FG
'10 360/6 FG
Re: What? No Jangle?
I imagine that a twelve-stringer WOULD sound shrill in a hearing aid . . .
Re: What? No Jangle?
johnhall wrote:I imagine that a twelve-stringer WOULD sound shrill in a hearing aid . . .
They have a volume control for those. And I'm guessing that a couple of chicken-pickin', twangy Telecasters through Fender amps might sound shrill, too. But, that has to be a small minority of his typical audience, no?
Let that Rickenbacker 12 string jangle, fer cryin' out loud!!!! It's just what they are supposed to do......
It's a Byrd, it's a playin'..........
'73 4001 MG
'09 360/12 FG
'10 360/6 FG
'09 360/12 FG
'10 360/6 FG
Re: What? No Jangle?
I shouldn't be stirring the pot, I suppose. But I can't resist this observation: isn't that what tone controls on an amp are for? OK....I'll go downstairs now and just play my Rick.
JimK
JimK
Re: What? No Jangle?
Roger's been using the house mixing board for compression the past couple of years because he'd rather use soundcheck time to fine-tune the two acoustics — his instruments of choice these days. He's been forthright in saying he feels most comfortable as a folk singer at this point in his career, and uses the Ric-12 for maybe only five songs a show. Roger's also been quoted recently as saying he's not even that interested in writing new songs.Folkie wrote:It sounds to me either like he isn't using the onboard compressor, or he's jettisoned his beloved JangleBox. The sound is muddy, to say the least, with none of that signature chime we associate with McGuinn.
However, he and I corresponded recently and he seemed pretty interested in trying out the new JB3 I sent him. So, ya never know... Camilla might like the mute switch.
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Byrdfan1948
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Re: What? No Jangle?
Interesting comments here regarding Roger's shows, the lack of jangle, the choice of songs and the guitars he plays. I even was intrigued by Steve's comment that Roger no longer has any interest in song writing.
As I see it Roger and his wife have every right to present to us whatever sort of show they wish, using any sort of guitar, or sound they wish to use when presenting it. However, like Tom, I've pretty much come to the same conclusion as he, regarding that product. That means I too probably have seen my last Roger show.
In recent shows over the last few years, I've heard all the same stories so many times now I could do his show. I've been disappointed time and time again as the two 12 string guitars sit virtually unused. I was bored to death listening to an empty sounding six string plus one string guitar playing 80 % of the show. I was finding myself waiting for one song I have no interest in hearing in the first place to end, hoping that the next one will be played on one of the guitars I came to hear. I know I am being very hard here. But I am being honest. After 4 or 5 shows like this I have to conclude this is what to expect from now on.
It's not that Roger does not still play, or sing well enough, it just that once you take The Byrds out of Roger, what's left no longer interests me. I don't even care if his playing is no longer at the level it once was. He is still a very accomplished master of the 12 string guitar. Unfortunately he chooses not to play them much any more.
For me anyway, I believe that unlike Hillman and Crosby, he has become a victim of never establishing himself as anything much more than Roger McGuinn of The Byrds...... If he had been able to do that years ago perhaps today he could be able to provide more than old folk songs, or sea shanties played on a poor replacement for a real 12 string.
Regardless, Roger will always be a hero to me, but over the last half dozen years unfortunately my hero has become more and more of a memory. Therefore, I've decided that it's now best to remember what once was, rather than get frustrated with what is.
Having said that I would still say to anyone who has never been to his show .......GO!!! and if even for just one song you hear that 12 string Ric fly again you'll then at least know why those of us who once knew, it miss it so much. Also, I would say at my age, I'll happily risk my hearing to hear it again!!
Al D'Addario
As I see it Roger and his wife have every right to present to us whatever sort of show they wish, using any sort of guitar, or sound they wish to use when presenting it. However, like Tom, I've pretty much come to the same conclusion as he, regarding that product. That means I too probably have seen my last Roger show.
In recent shows over the last few years, I've heard all the same stories so many times now I could do his show. I've been disappointed time and time again as the two 12 string guitars sit virtually unused. I was bored to death listening to an empty sounding six string plus one string guitar playing 80 % of the show. I was finding myself waiting for one song I have no interest in hearing in the first place to end, hoping that the next one will be played on one of the guitars I came to hear. I know I am being very hard here. But I am being honest. After 4 or 5 shows like this I have to conclude this is what to expect from now on.
It's not that Roger does not still play, or sing well enough, it just that once you take The Byrds out of Roger, what's left no longer interests me. I don't even care if his playing is no longer at the level it once was. He is still a very accomplished master of the 12 string guitar. Unfortunately he chooses not to play them much any more.
For me anyway, I believe that unlike Hillman and Crosby, he has become a victim of never establishing himself as anything much more than Roger McGuinn of The Byrds...... If he had been able to do that years ago perhaps today he could be able to provide more than old folk songs, or sea shanties played on a poor replacement for a real 12 string.
Regardless, Roger will always be a hero to me, but over the last half dozen years unfortunately my hero has become more and more of a memory. Therefore, I've decided that it's now best to remember what once was, rather than get frustrated with what is.
Having said that I would still say to anyone who has never been to his show .......GO!!! and if even for just one song you hear that 12 string Ric fly again you'll then at least know why those of us who once knew, it miss it so much. Also, I would say at my age, I'll happily risk my hearing to hear it again!!
Al D'Addario
Re: What? No Jangle?
I think that everyone's hearing changes over time, and I wonder if it is possible that he either can't hear the same or suffers from tinnitus and can't take the jangle himself. Playing with less high end might be more comfortable to him, and he might not choose to disclose it. Anything is possible.
Re: What? No Jangle?
Pretty much what I was thinking. Alas.rkbsound wrote:I think that everyone's hearing changes over time, and I wonder if it is possible that he either can't hear the same or suffers from tinnitus and can't take the jangle himself. Playing with less high end might be more comfortable to him, and he might not choose to disclose it. Anything is possible.
JimK
Re: What? No Jangle?
Isn't this pretty much what John intimated above?rkbsound wrote:I think that everyone's hearing changes over time, and I wonder if it is possible that he either can't hear the same or suffers from tinnitus and can't take the jangle himself. Playing with less high end might be more comfortable to him, and he might not choose to disclose it. Anything is possible.
Re: What? No Jangle?
No - I didn't read John's (John Hall's post?) post as a referral to Roger. If Roger wears a hearing aid, maybe I missed that. I thought he was referring to hearing aids of members of the audience, as referred to by Roger and his wife - that it is too much shrill for the audience, and perhaps some members of the audience have hearing aids. I am suggesting that the jangle is too much for Roger to take, and perhaps he's not ready to discuss it. Just a thought.jps wrote:Isn't this pretty much what John intimated above?rkbsound wrote:I think that everyone's hearing changes over time, and I wonder if it is possible that he either can't hear the same or suffers from tinnitus and can't take the jangle himself. Playing with less high end might be more comfortable to him, and he might not choose to disclose it. Anything is possible.