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12-string nuts and bridges
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:14 pm
by lazerdriver
I have read through several threads regarding options for 12-string nuts and bridges for my 2002 360/12 and am looking for some clarification. Correct me if I am wrong, but for the options what I have gathered from these threads is this...
Ric 12-string nuts in order from widest spaced to narrowest spaced:
1. Rickysounds Brass Wide Spaced Nut (puts outside string almost to edge of fret bevel)
2. Arnquist nut (no longer an option)
3. Rickenbacker wider nut (are they putting this on new Ric 12-strings or still using the original???)
4. Rickenbacker legacy spaced nut (mutes-ville for me)
Would you say those assumptions are correct in terms of width?
So for the 12-saddle bridges I have some questions...
1. I purchased one of these years ago, but could never convince myself the saddles could be notched in a way so as not to make the string spacing worse than it already is. I never used it and eventually sold it. Can it be notched so not to make string spacing worse?
2. I saw a picture of a notched one of these (it may have been a 381-12 or 660-12, I don't recall) and it looked like some of the saddles were notched about 1mm from the edge of the saddle. Would a human being even be able to notch saddles to such close tolerances? It almost looks like it would have to be done by a machine at the Ric factory to get it that perfect.
3. I can't imagine finding a luthier I could trust to notch a 12-saddle Ric bridge. This is not something that anyone would be doing enough of to have that kind of experience. I almost feel like I would have to have a Ric with a notched 12-saddle, like a 381-12 or 660-12, and use that as a guide in order reliably notch a new bridge. I know Ric sells them un-notched, but would they be able to notch one on request? Or are there just too many variables to consider that they could not do that?
Re: 12-string nuts and bridges
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:01 pm
by teb
I can't say much about the off-the-shelf nuts, as the one on my 370/12 was an Arnquist custom job, along with a re-fret all the way out to the outer edge of the binding. That and tightening up the string pairs made a huge difference in the playability for me and my big fingers. On my 340/12 I cut a wider nut with tighter pairs myself and it did improve somewhat, as the frets were already pretty much out to the edges of the fingerboard. I used a set of Norman nut files, which are essentially thickness gauges with tiny teeth cut into one side, which I got off of eBay a while back. The nut was cut from a scrap of epoxy/graphite. Having a little more width and the tight pairs in particular made the difference for me.
This is the 370/12 before and after the Arnquist fret and nut job.
As to the 12-saddle bridge, any good luthier should be able to cut the slots by hand. Arnquist rounded off all sharp edges and corners and the string grooves are offset a bit toward the edges of the saddles to keep the pairs tight, but it's certainly not an impossible task. He strobe-intonated the saddles to what he called a "sweetened tuning" but as you can see, there isn't an awful lot of difference, so the 12-saddle may or may not be worth the trouble/money. My 340/12 has the stock 6 saddle bridge and I don't have a problem with it that my ears can hear.
Re: 12-string nuts and bridges
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:41 am
by lazerdriver
Thanks for the photo of the 12-string bridge. That will help me to show a luthier what needs to be done if I decide to go with a new bridge.
I think I remember reading somewhere that re-fretting a lacquered fretboard required some extra work. Was there a need to either remove/repair/refinish the lacquer on the fretboard in order to do the re-fret?
Re: 12-string nuts and bridges
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:24 am
by teb
Yes, we removed the varnish on the fretboard. It made no difference in playability or sound and to my eye it also looks much neater as shown in the photos.
Re: 12-string nuts and bridges
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:50 am
by lazerdriver
teb wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:24 am
Yes, we removed the varnish on the fretboard. It made no difference in playability or sound and to my eye it also looks much neater as shown in the photos.
So I am curious as to how he handled the neck binding. Did he have to replace or repair any of that for the re-fret? Or is it such that the fret ends are visible on the sides of the fretboard like they would be on an unbound neck? I wouldn't have a problem with the latter, just wondering.
Re: 12-string nuts and bridges
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:27 am
by teb
They run all the way out, just as they can on an unbound neck and are smoothed/beveled a bit on their ends. The amount of width gained is small, but along with tightening up the pairs, it made a great difference in playability for me.
Re: 12-string nuts and bridges
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:30 pm
by lazerdriver
Thanks for the info.
Yes, the added width is small. But as I have found out recently a little goes a long way. I just purchased a used 381/12. I think it has a modified nut because I noticed it has about 1mm extra space between the 5th / 6th and 4th / 5th strings. There is a noticeable difference in playing compared to my 360/12 which even has the wider Rickenbacker nut I put on several years back.
Re: 12-string nuts and bridges
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:41 am
by Mrbigg
I copied this from my post in another thread. Hopefully this helps you. When I figure out how to get pics posted, I’ll do a thread on my 360/12 string nut endeavors.
Ric changed the string spacing around 2008/2009. It makes the guitar way more playable.
I bought a 2002 360/12 used and it was terrible. Bought a RickySounds brass nut for it. Didn’t get installed before I bought a brand new, 2021 360/12. Night and day difference n playability.
I did some more research and that’s when I found that Ric changed the spacing. I bought a new Ric nut and put it on the 2002.
What year is your 381?
By the way, I have huge, fat carrot fingers and if I can play these, anyone should be able to with the 2008 and later nut.
I’m 6’4” and 300 pounds.
Re: 12-string nuts and bridges
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:54 am
by lazerdriver
My 381/12 is a 2010 model, so that might explain why it is so much more playable than my 2002 360/12. Though I am not sure why the 381's nut is spaced a little wider than the wider nut I put on the 360/12 (which was sometime around 2014/2015). Maybe the nuts they started putting on in 2008/2009 were a bit wider spaced than the ones they were selling separately back in 2014, or maybe I just didn't get the latest and greatest version at the time.
Re: 12-string nuts and bridges
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:10 pm
by Reverb
I don't know if this is useful, but I had a RickySounds wide-spaced nut installed on my
2013 360/12 this week:
It's subtle, but you can see the spacing between octaves is reduced a bit, and then each set is spaced apart, pushing the Low E and High E further out toward the binding. Even with this small change, it is much nicer to place.
Re: 12-string nuts and bridges
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:21 pm
by lazerdriver
Reverb wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:10 pm
I don't know if this is useful, but I had a RickySounds wide-spaced nut installed on my
2013 360/12 this week:
It's subtle, but you can see the spacing between octaves is reduced a bit, and then each set is spaced apart, pushing the Low E and High E further out toward the binding. Even with this small change, it is much nicer to place.
That does help and those are great photos showing the change of string spacing.
What gauge and brand strings are you using?
Do you notice any interference problems with the octave strings buzzing or rattling being that they are closer together?
Do you have any problems with the low and high E strings being so close to the fret ends? Or did you also do a re-fret to get more fret real estate like some others have done?
Re: 12-string nuts and bridges
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:56 am
by Mrbigg
I was messing around this past weekend with a brass nut that I bought for a six string from Axe Masters on reverb. I had to cut the octave slots myself. Since this was an experiment with a sacrificial nut, I started with a really close string pairing.
When they were really close, they buzzed together. I could compensate somewhat at the bridge by spreading the strings there by cutting new slots. My final conclusion was that I really like the newer Ric slot for now.
I will revisit the RickySounds nut soon also. When I put it on my other guitar for a bit, I noticed that a refret wasn’t necessary at all. No string fall off whatsoever. No that I have some diamond fret files it makes it easy to cut nuts.
I also have a Winfield TOM bridge that I’m going to experiment with.
Re: 12-string nuts and bridges
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:58 pm
by Reverb
lazerdriver wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:21 pm
That does help and those are great photos showing the change of string spacing.
What gauge and brand strings are you using?
Do you notice any interference problems with the octave strings buzzing or rattling being that they are closer together?
Do you have any problems with the low and high E strings being so close to the fret ends? Or did you also do a re-fret to get more fret real estate like some others have done?
The strings are the standard Rickenbacker 12-string pack.
I hadn't noticed any buzzing, but I'll listen closer next time I play it!
No problems with the closeness of the strings to the fret ends (I thought this would be an issue, but turned out to be nothing!)
Re: 12-string nuts and bridges
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:50 am
by lazerdriver
I order two for the Rickysounds 12-string nuts. They don't seem like they are slotted very well. After waiting a month to get them, here is what I got:
Tuner side of nut:
Fret side of nut:
Are these supposed to be usable without additional modification? Noticed how the first four string pair slots are narrower on the fret side than on the tuner side.
Also, the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th string pairs don't looks right to me. Shouldn't they be slotted so that bottoms of the strings are more or less at the same level?
Here is a Rickenbacker wide nut for comparison:
Re: 12-string nuts and bridges
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:56 pm
by Mrbigg
That’s how the RickySounds nuts come. You have to “finish” the slots to your guitar.