A plea for wider 12-string necks - Mr. Hall?
Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4
-
ricnvolved
-
wileyibex
Well, since you asked...I agree with everybody.
I'd agree, for instance, that there's nothing wrong with the line as it exists. I also agree with the theory that if a business fails to listen to its customers, they'll exercise their options and become somebody else's customers.
One can't help but notice a steady stream of folks discussing whether and how they can cope with the narrow neck on the 330/360/370/620 12-strings, and other constant and long-running threads of owners discussing the various and sundry mods used to alleviate the "problem" therewith. So there does arise the natural question as to whether that "signature feature" is a help or a hindrance to RIC...at least on the 12-strings. I liked the skinny neck on my 381/V69 6-string...
I think a third path is available, though, other than, "do nothing" or, "put a wider neck on the 330/360/370/620 12-strings": Make standard the modification that luthiers like Mark A do -- revise and re-cut the nut on the 12-strings to move the "E" pairs slightly outboard from their present positions, move the paired strings closer together, and thereby increase the pair-to-pair spacing; and round off the edges of the frets to accommodate the re-spaced strings. Voila; more room on the fretboard! I don't recall ever hearing a complaint about neck width from a RIC 12-string owner who's had the strings respaced by installing a re-cut nut.
There have been running changes made to Rickenbackers over the years, hasn't there? The most recent must be the thinner neck profile on the 660-series...
From Isaiah: "Blessed are those who minister to the wants and needs of others; their souls are as a watered garden, as a spring that faileth not."
P.S. - I think Isaiah was hinting that he wanted a re-spaced nut on HIS Ric 360/12 JG, too...
I'd agree, for instance, that there's nothing wrong with the line as it exists. I also agree with the theory that if a business fails to listen to its customers, they'll exercise their options and become somebody else's customers.
One can't help but notice a steady stream of folks discussing whether and how they can cope with the narrow neck on the 330/360/370/620 12-strings, and other constant and long-running threads of owners discussing the various and sundry mods used to alleviate the "problem" therewith. So there does arise the natural question as to whether that "signature feature" is a help or a hindrance to RIC...at least on the 12-strings. I liked the skinny neck on my 381/V69 6-string...
I think a third path is available, though, other than, "do nothing" or, "put a wider neck on the 330/360/370/620 12-strings": Make standard the modification that luthiers like Mark A do -- revise and re-cut the nut on the 12-strings to move the "E" pairs slightly outboard from their present positions, move the paired strings closer together, and thereby increase the pair-to-pair spacing; and round off the edges of the frets to accommodate the re-spaced strings. Voila; more room on the fretboard! I don't recall ever hearing a complaint about neck width from a RIC 12-string owner who's had the strings respaced by installing a re-cut nut.
There have been running changes made to Rickenbackers over the years, hasn't there? The most recent must be the thinner neck profile on the 660-series...
From Isaiah: "Blessed are those who minister to the wants and needs of others; their souls are as a watered garden, as a spring that faileth not."
P.S. - I think Isaiah was hinting that he wanted a re-spaced nut on HIS Ric 360/12 JG, too...
Jeffrey Bauguss wrote:
Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:58 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Careful McKelvy!! You're gonna stir up a can of worms around here with that statement!! I can see Paul & Dave sharpening their knives now! ~LOLOLOLOL~
________________________
My point was only to emphasize that there *IS* a healthy lust for more rics - never a bad thing (except for our credit cards and our neighbors)
BTW Jeffrey do you ever gig around Winston Salem??
Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:58 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Careful McKelvy!! You're gonna stir up a can of worms around here with that statement!! I can see Paul & Dave sharpening their knives now! ~LOLOLOLOL~
________________________
My point was only to emphasize that there *IS* a healthy lust for more rics - never a bad thing (except for our credit cards and our neighbors)
BTW Jeffrey do you ever gig around Winston Salem??
"The only worthwhile conquests are those wrested from ignorance"
-Napoleon
-Napoleon
I think JH hit the nail on the head when he said that the reason we haven't seen more Russian products on OUR consumer market is the lack of cash (for developing manufacturing capacity). Russian manufacturers in many cases cannot fill the domestic demand for consumer products, much less foreign demand. One case in point being their automobiles. The Lada car is NOT the hunk of junk I had been told it was. Perhaps in the past, but not now. One taxi driver bragged on how tough they were and that he had no desire for a foreign import, since they usually didn't hold up as well. I rated the interior fit and finish as on par with a Toyota Corolla or Chevy Cavalier. If I ordered one fully optioned out it would cost me about $3000 in Russia, maybe a bit more. I would buy one in a heartbeat. The Russians buy base models for less than that. Their top car, the Volga, looks a lot like a classic Mercedes-Benz. I stopped in a furrier shop in St. Petersburg and found stunning ladie's leather coats trimmed in premium fox fur for about $500 (your wives would have drooled). Anybody who understands vacuum tube manufacturing knows that building new versions in large quantity that rival American and western European tubes of the past is a technological undertaking far exceeding the building of guitars on a small scale. The tubes have to retail for $5 to $30 to be competitive in the marketplace (for guitar amp tubes). We can't build them at that price anymore. The Russians are also the second largest manufacturers (after the USA) for commercial aircraft and have a huge export market. Their heavy trucks are among the world's best, and they are gaining share on the export market. This is WAY BEYOND vodka and caviar (or electric guitars). The Communists put a damper on the manufacturing of consumer products, but that is rapidly changing.
I agree with John McKelvy. If people did not like Rickenbacker, they would not request that RIC make new models that fit their needs. I doubt that Harmony gets a lot of requests from pros and serious guitarists for new models.
And what has all this got to do with 12-string Rickenbackers? While I don't have much interest in Asian guitars, if a guitar were built in Russia by a factory that intended their product to be competitive with the best built anywhere else in the world, I would probably buy one. Not every Russian is a drunk that is passed out at the subway station with a bottle of vodka in their pocket. On average, they seemed to have a greater interest in the arts than we do. And your factory-building dollar (ruble?) goes a lot further in Russia than it does here.
If I were looking for a place to build something that required a lot of skilled hand labor in order to meet a growing demand, I would be looking at a place like Russia. If Fender built their cheapest tube amps and guitars there instead of Mexico, they would have a lot better reputation for quality and reliability than they do now. Because the Russian consumer would probably not put up with MIM quality, either. If Rickenbacker does not meet the demands for it's guitars, then rest assured that somebody else will step in to fill that demand with similar guitars, just as Mr. Franklin noted in his scripture from the book of Isaiah. And his scripture did not mention a particular nationality. The blessing is open to anybody that serves the need.
Amen, brother!
Mr. Vandersteen is selling his world-class loudspeakers in Russia, I wonder if Mr. Hall has the same ambitions for his guitars? The Russians really do have a love of artsy craftsy things.
Maybe I should sell them to the Russians.
I agree with John McKelvy. If people did not like Rickenbacker, they would not request that RIC make new models that fit their needs. I doubt that Harmony gets a lot of requests from pros and serious guitarists for new models.
And what has all this got to do with 12-string Rickenbackers? While I don't have much interest in Asian guitars, if a guitar were built in Russia by a factory that intended their product to be competitive with the best built anywhere else in the world, I would probably buy one. Not every Russian is a drunk that is passed out at the subway station with a bottle of vodka in their pocket. On average, they seemed to have a greater interest in the arts than we do. And your factory-building dollar (ruble?) goes a lot further in Russia than it does here.
If I were looking for a place to build something that required a lot of skilled hand labor in order to meet a growing demand, I would be looking at a place like Russia. If Fender built their cheapest tube amps and guitars there instead of Mexico, they would have a lot better reputation for quality and reliability than they do now. Because the Russian consumer would probably not put up with MIM quality, either. If Rickenbacker does not meet the demands for it's guitars, then rest assured that somebody else will step in to fill that demand with similar guitars, just as Mr. Franklin noted in his scripture from the book of Isaiah. And his scripture did not mention a particular nationality. The blessing is open to anybody that serves the need.
Amen, brother!
Mr. Vandersteen is selling his world-class loudspeakers in Russia, I wonder if Mr. Hall has the same ambitions for his guitars? The Russians really do have a love of artsy craftsy things.
Maybe I should sell them to the Russians.
No offense but I think you are overly fixated on things Russian! My experience with Ladas does not coincide with yours. And, yes, we've sold to Russia for years now. Fortunately, we've never had to deal with the gangster extortion that most business people in Russia deal with on a daily basis.
My point, while not precisely stated, is that we have plenty of time to adapt, should it be necessary to do so. Styles do change and we have changed with them for the most part.
People can signal their preference by buying another brand, but with a 98% of the electric twelve string market and 100% shop utilization, no prudent business man would yet perceive a trend suggesting change.
But it might and could happen. However a few posts aren't likely to be taken too seriously as opposed to a change in the sales figures which would.
My point, while not precisely stated, is that we have plenty of time to adapt, should it be necessary to do so. Styles do change and we have changed with them for the most part.
People can signal their preference by buying another brand, but with a 98% of the electric twelve string market and 100% shop utilization, no prudent business man would yet perceive a trend suggesting change.
But it might and could happen. However a few posts aren't likely to be taken too seriously as opposed to a change in the sales figures which would.
Actually, a LOT of people have signalled their preference by buying a different brand. It is just not felt by RIC because demand exceeds supply (for now). A fellow that works in the mailroom at my place of employment asked me if I would ever buy a guitar through mail order, because he never would buy a guitar unless he could handle and play it first. I said that I would, but only if it was something like a Rickenbacker built by a company that did not routinely turn out clunkers, because I once had an aggravating neck problem with a Fender P-bass that I mail ordered. He then said that he had considered buying a Rickenbacker, but they never were available in the music shops he had been in. So he bought another brand. Rickenbacker lost a probable sale. That scenario has doubtlessly been replayed many times as the customer discovers, "no Rickenbackers in stock, and a three month wait if you order now, plus you have to leave a 20% deposit". So they buy something else. Yes, RIC is at 100% capacity of their current production capability. However, that capability is probably only 25% of what the sales capacity would be if a wide variety of Rickenbackers were prominently displayed in a large percentage of the music stores. A lot of companies wish that was the problem they had, and they would be looking for ways to fill the demand.
If I were a dealer, I would also be leery of carrying Rickenbackers, even though I love them. I have noticed that a lot of the sales go to internet-based dealers that sell at huge discounts. That and the chain stores seem to have squeezed the local stores out of business. Chain stores do not seem like the best place to buy something like a Rickenbacker. I think that most seasoned Rick owners have learned how to track down the guitars they want (and know what the deeply-discounted mailorder price would be), but a first-time buyer with no familiarity of the brand is not likely to place an order and wait. I would have to sell at practically no profit to the first type of customer, and could not sell to the second customer without several models in stock to choose from. That means I would have considerable money tied up in stock, with my most likely customers wanting me to "match price" with a mass seller of Rickenbackers. No real incentive there for the mom & pop music shop.
With that type of scenario, you have to really keep the customers you already have, because a lot of new Rickenbackers are not hanging in shops waiting to attract the first-time buyer. I have two Rickenbackers, and a third is on order (through an out-of-state internet-based dealer). I am far more likely to mailorder than most people I know, and that may be true of a large percentage of Rickenbacker owners. I have never seen a new Rickenbacker hanging in a shop in my part of northeast Texas. That has to be costing some sales. But when you sell every one that you can make anyway....................
Also, the 12-string market probably doesn't represent more than 2% of the total market. I rarely see them. And let's not forget that people who own several guitars (which would include MOST guitarists, I suspect) can always sell some of them off when the economy goes sour. Which it looks to be doing. It has already hit the high end audio business. You should see some of the deals I have gotten on new high end audio equipment, and from dealers no less. I bid a RIDICULOUSLY low price on a Conrad-Johnson amp on eBay, and though I wasn't even close to the reserve price, the dealer emailed that he would sell this new amp sealed in the box with full warranty for $1,195 and FREE shipping. It retails for $2,295, and a few years ago you were lucky to get a 10% discount from ANY dealer you called (dealer wholesale is typically 60% retail in this business, so half off is losing major money). I informed the dealer I had just bought another one in mint condition with a dealer warranty for $900. Such is the world of High End Audio these days. And C-J enjoys a reputation in it's circles every bit as lofty as Rickenbacker. Just yesterday I ordered a new Traynor YCV40 combo kit with full warranty for $345 plus S&H from an authorized dealer. I recently saw not one but FOUR brand new Marshall AVT50H amp heads with matching Marshall 4x12 cabinets and full warranty go for $460 each on eBay. A Marshall halfstack for $460!!! I won't even say what I saw new American made Highway 1 Strats going for. It worries me.
With prices this low, things can't be good in the music business. Rickenbacker has so far been spared because of it's dedication to quality and never having met demands for many years. There is simply not enough used Ricks to compete with new sales, it seems. I go to eBay and pull up ALL Rickenbackers and get less than 2 full pages. I pull up just the Fender basses and get 13 pages of listings.
Hopefully, things will go better for RIC than for some other companies (that are as good as dead already, but rigor mortis hasn't set in yet). But if I ran a company, I would be getting prepared to give the customer just about anything in reason that he wanted. 12-string or 6-string, wide or narrow neck (in C or D cross section), short or long scale, choice of woods, tuning keys, string type, pickups, bindings, inlays, etc. And yes, we'll paint it pink and white to match your 57 Cadillac.
On a final note: Yes, I AM overly fixated on Russian things and will probably have a lot of Russian things in my life as I will probably marry a particularly nice Russian gal. The gal I am interested in is also business minded, and I would be interested in some sort of business between the two countries.
Da svidahniya!
If I were a dealer, I would also be leery of carrying Rickenbackers, even though I love them. I have noticed that a lot of the sales go to internet-based dealers that sell at huge discounts. That and the chain stores seem to have squeezed the local stores out of business. Chain stores do not seem like the best place to buy something like a Rickenbacker. I think that most seasoned Rick owners have learned how to track down the guitars they want (and know what the deeply-discounted mailorder price would be), but a first-time buyer with no familiarity of the brand is not likely to place an order and wait. I would have to sell at practically no profit to the first type of customer, and could not sell to the second customer without several models in stock to choose from. That means I would have considerable money tied up in stock, with my most likely customers wanting me to "match price" with a mass seller of Rickenbackers. No real incentive there for the mom & pop music shop.
With that type of scenario, you have to really keep the customers you already have, because a lot of new Rickenbackers are not hanging in shops waiting to attract the first-time buyer. I have two Rickenbackers, and a third is on order (through an out-of-state internet-based dealer). I am far more likely to mailorder than most people I know, and that may be true of a large percentage of Rickenbacker owners. I have never seen a new Rickenbacker hanging in a shop in my part of northeast Texas. That has to be costing some sales. But when you sell every one that you can make anyway....................
Also, the 12-string market probably doesn't represent more than 2% of the total market. I rarely see them. And let's not forget that people who own several guitars (which would include MOST guitarists, I suspect) can always sell some of them off when the economy goes sour. Which it looks to be doing. It has already hit the high end audio business. You should see some of the deals I have gotten on new high end audio equipment, and from dealers no less. I bid a RIDICULOUSLY low price on a Conrad-Johnson amp on eBay, and though I wasn't even close to the reserve price, the dealer emailed that he would sell this new amp sealed in the box with full warranty for $1,195 and FREE shipping. It retails for $2,295, and a few years ago you were lucky to get a 10% discount from ANY dealer you called (dealer wholesale is typically 60% retail in this business, so half off is losing major money). I informed the dealer I had just bought another one in mint condition with a dealer warranty for $900. Such is the world of High End Audio these days. And C-J enjoys a reputation in it's circles every bit as lofty as Rickenbacker. Just yesterday I ordered a new Traynor YCV40 combo kit with full warranty for $345 plus S&H from an authorized dealer. I recently saw not one but FOUR brand new Marshall AVT50H amp heads with matching Marshall 4x12 cabinets and full warranty go for $460 each on eBay. A Marshall halfstack for $460!!! I won't even say what I saw new American made Highway 1 Strats going for. It worries me.
With prices this low, things can't be good in the music business. Rickenbacker has so far been spared because of it's dedication to quality and never having met demands for many years. There is simply not enough used Ricks to compete with new sales, it seems. I go to eBay and pull up ALL Rickenbackers and get less than 2 full pages. I pull up just the Fender basses and get 13 pages of listings.
Hopefully, things will go better for RIC than for some other companies (that are as good as dead already, but rigor mortis hasn't set in yet). But if I ran a company, I would be getting prepared to give the customer just about anything in reason that he wanted. 12-string or 6-string, wide or narrow neck (in C or D cross section), short or long scale, choice of woods, tuning keys, string type, pickups, bindings, inlays, etc. And yes, we'll paint it pink and white to match your 57 Cadillac.
On a final note: Yes, I AM overly fixated on Russian things and will probably have a lot of Russian things in my life as I will probably marry a particularly nice Russian gal. The gal I am interested in is also business minded, and I would be interested in some sort of business between the two countries.
Da svidahniya!
-
wileyibex
In defense of Mr. Hall's statement about being at 100% capacity: How many times has a successful bar or restaurant that is always filled to capacity decided to expand the size of their business, only to see popularity fall off considerably. I know this is only anectdotal, but I think it rings true.
Rickenbacker could expand production and work it out so that more dealers stocked more product. There then begins the pressure to keep up production to meet this newly created "demand" that would not necessarily correlate with actual consumer demand. I'm sure the Rickenbacker house is very happy the way things are.
A custom shop and/or refinishing shop has been discussed here, and this is one area that many people think would have possibilities for success. But success vs profitability are two different issues. I'm sure Mr. Hall looks at the ROI for every decision his company makes.
Personally, I'd love to send in my beat up 335 for a fix up, and I'd be willing to pay close to what it's worth now to get it back in shape. As a result, the final value of the guitar would probably be close to my total investment in it. I'm also sure that the price I am willing to pay is less than the cost of taking people off their regular job to fix mine (including cost of lost production from those people).
Maybe I don't even know what I'm talking about!
Rickenbacker could expand production and work it out so that more dealers stocked more product. There then begins the pressure to keep up production to meet this newly created "demand" that would not necessarily correlate with actual consumer demand. I'm sure the Rickenbacker house is very happy the way things are.
A custom shop and/or refinishing shop has been discussed here, and this is one area that many people think would have possibilities for success. But success vs profitability are two different issues. I'm sure Mr. Hall looks at the ROI for every decision his company makes.
Personally, I'd love to send in my beat up 335 for a fix up, and I'd be willing to pay close to what it's worth now to get it back in shape. As a result, the final value of the guitar would probably be close to my total investment in it. I'm also sure that the price I am willing to pay is less than the cost of taking people off their regular job to fix mine (including cost of lost production from those people).
Maybe I don't even know what I'm talking about!
I was just over at the Peavey website. It seems that Peavey gear has been winning awards left and right. If the musicians want it, Hartley Peavey will surely try to make it for them. My dad has never had trouble with his old Peavey amp. It is made with plywood cabinet, a speaker with a massive magnet, and a cool-running massive exposed heatsink. My new Marshall AVT50 has a particle board cabinet, a speaker with a dinky magnet, an enclosed heatsink that needs a cooling fan, and a paper circuit board (and somehow manages to sound good in spite of it all). Guess which brand most people would call a piece of junk? But Hartley Peavey keeps pushing ahead and his company keeps growing, passing his competitors in growth and sales. Like Mr. Franklin states, when a man serves the needs of others, he will be successful. Hartley Peavey is not afraid of going out of business by giving his customers what they want. He even had a stretch of Mississippi Hwy 493 named after him recently, so revered is he on his home turf. As my father said, he gave them (poor musicians) something that Fender, Vox, Marshall, and Ampeg did not: a good solid amp they could afford. Hartley Peavey also supports LOCAL dealers, because I do not see his amps hawked all over the internet and mailorder catalogs at prices that mom & pop shops cannot match. GUESS WHOSE AMPS I SEE THE MOST WHEN I WALK INTO SMALL TOWN MUSIC SHOPS? The marketing is as important as the manufacturing. Sometimes even moreso. Mr. Hall can decide whether or not RIC will offer his customers the options they desire in the quantities they desire, whether it be wide 12-string necks or whatever. I wish his quality oriented company a long and prosperous future.
If Hartley Peavey got as many requests as I have seen on this forum, he would make a guitar amp with a 12-string control panel.
If Hartley Peavey got as many requests as I have seen on this forum, he would make a guitar amp with a 12-string control panel.
I think it would be impossible for Rickenbacker to go head to head with Gibson/Fender without introducing budget lines and that would be a terrible thing. Imagine Rickenbackers being tainted with an epiphone/squire/asian gretsch etc. You may get the market share, you may get the kids buying them, but at what cost to the things we hold dear. Rickenbacker is the only guitar I would buy without seeing it, such is the quality. I know the Rickenbacker I play is exactly the same as the ones I see being played on TV, no other guitar maker can say that.
You may want to look up the story of the Morgan Motor Co of England. Quite a few years ago the BBC did a documentary, buisiness analysis of them criticizing their waiting lists, outdated cars etc etc and giving them a plan for the future which Morgan ignored. Morgan are still there making cars and making money. The British car manufacturers that took on the world died or got swallowed by it. I'm sure JH knows the story well.
My only request from Rickenbacker is a production schedule so we can know a better when we can expect to get our guitars and I'm only saying this because i really really want my 380lpz. Please throw a few on the production line Mr Hall
. I can understand a new or revised model being a bit slow being released but Ric dealers should be able to quote delivery times on established lines a bit better than "dunno, maybe 3 months, maybe 6, maybe a year, maybe next week"
You may want to look up the story of the Morgan Motor Co of England. Quite a few years ago the BBC did a documentary, buisiness analysis of them criticizing their waiting lists, outdated cars etc etc and giving them a plan for the future which Morgan ignored. Morgan are still there making cars and making money. The British car manufacturers that took on the world died or got swallowed by it. I'm sure JH knows the story well.
My only request from Rickenbacker is a production schedule so we can know a better when we can expect to get our guitars and I'm only saying this because i really really want my 380lpz. Please throw a few on the production line Mr Hall
. I can understand a new or revised model being a bit slow being released but Ric dealers should be able to quote delivery times on established lines a bit better than "dunno, maybe 3 months, maybe 6, maybe a year, maybe next week"
Rickenbacker has evolved to its present form based on the dynamics of the music industry, the economy and the vision of its owners over the past seven decades.
While it is intriguing to think of and discuss those new guitars and modifications thereof that may be on our wish list, for reasons mentioned by John Hall and others here it seems to me that such new ideas, even great ones, have to be tempered by practicality. There are many production and marketing factors that are not always transparent to those of us, like myself, who some may consider fall within the category of the "armchair guitar executive."
The fact remains that there is a fascination about Rickenbacker instruments that continues to grow steadily. That we are all here talking about Rickenbackers with the passion we do supports this assertion. That the instruments are not always readily and evenly available makes the pursuit even more intriguing and we are drawn to these instruments all the more. If a Rickenbacker was available on every shelf, I am convinced that I and many others would never have embarked on the quest of wanting to know so much more about these fine instruments.
I am glad that RIC is willing to freely express their ideas in a public Forum. I am also grateful for the respect that members of this Forum have shown one another in the expression of their ideas. It makes my job much easier.
While it is intriguing to think of and discuss those new guitars and modifications thereof that may be on our wish list, for reasons mentioned by John Hall and others here it seems to me that such new ideas, even great ones, have to be tempered by practicality. There are many production and marketing factors that are not always transparent to those of us, like myself, who some may consider fall within the category of the "armchair guitar executive."
The fact remains that there is a fascination about Rickenbacker instruments that continues to grow steadily. That we are all here talking about Rickenbackers with the passion we do supports this assertion. That the instruments are not always readily and evenly available makes the pursuit even more intriguing and we are drawn to these instruments all the more. If a Rickenbacker was available on every shelf, I am convinced that I and many others would never have embarked on the quest of wanting to know so much more about these fine instruments.
I am glad that RIC is willing to freely express their ideas in a public Forum. I am also grateful for the respect that members of this Forum have shown one another in the expression of their ideas. It makes my job much easier.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
Please join the Official RickResource Forum Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/groups/379271585440277
Please join the Official RickResource Forum Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/groups/379271585440277
I think a point may have been missed. The question was whether a customer COULD get the guitar that he liked with a wider neck. If Rickenbacker made a 360 with a bolt-on neck, somebody WOULD be cranking out wider 12-string bolt-on necks as I write in order to fill the demand. Maybe even in hi-tech graphite construction, etc. But Rickenbackers are neck-thru construction, so that cannot be. Necessity is the mother of invention, but the 12-string market is too small right now for somebody to tool up to do battle with firmly entrenched Rickenbacker. If a company as small as Rickenbacker can supply 98% of the 12-string market, then that says it all without a further comment. The 6-string market is another matter entirely.....................
One construction method that might work would be to tool up to make ALL the necks wider, then to have a secondary manufacturing step that brings the neck DOWN TO THE EXACT SIZE AND SHAPE REQUIREMENTS OF THE CUSTOMER for a small custom fee. This is the age of modern CNC machining, and since you can always remove some wood, but not put it back on, it is the way to go. The CNC machine tool operator simply clamps the neck in a jig, selects the correct computer program to perform the specific operation, and hits the GO button. I have seen gun parts made in this manner by a local independent machine tooling shop, and he can do small runs at an economical price. It becomes about as cheap to have a dozen neck size/profiles as it does to have only two, since you only have one size of neck blanks sitting up in the racks awaiting their future owner's "Call to Life". As Mr. Hall will verify, the CNC machine tool that can do this will cost major $$$$, BUT once you have this baby on the shop floor AND a trained operator to do the programming, you CAN do contract work to fill up any unused time for the man & machine. It thus becomes a profit maker, and not a capital waster. The reputation for quality that Rickenbacker enjoys would help to win contracts for outside work, and produce profits for future growth. This is just an idea, but others have done it.
There seems to be the mistaken idea running wild on this forum that enjoying growth tends to put companies out of business or reduces the quality of their products. UNREASONABLE growth is what ruins companies. I think Daimler-Benz would tend to disagree with the "keep-it-small" mentality, and nobody is calling their products pieces of mass market junk, even if they are one of the biggest automobile manufacturers on the planet. Everywhere I have been on this planet, Mercedes-Benz automobiles are usually the most common luxury car running around, except for the USA where Cadillac and Lincoln have a pricing advantage. They could not produce the automobiles they do at the price they do if they were not a large company with high profits that is able to take advantage of the latest manufacturing methods. But that's the rub...........RIC seems to want to keep just as much hand labor in the processs as it possibly can, somewhat along the lines of Rolls Royce. We all know which brand of automobile is now responsible for bringing the most new technology to the marketplace at the lower price, and it was growth and profits that allowed it to happen along with giving the customer what they wanted and needed at a price they could afford. That's business savvy. I might also add that my Ford F-150 has been completely free of any major problems since buying it new, and it has about 112K miles on it now. Still firing smoothly on the original spark plugs and it uses no oil between oil changes even now. I haven't had to do so much as to even change a burned-out light bulb. Rolls Royce doesn't do any better than that. Ford has more engineering dollars to spend on better technology. It's grow or die in the business world.
I have a friend that works in a tool & die shop that does work at close tolerances for major companies like Remington Arms. His standard working tolerance is half a thousandth, and his employer owns machine tools that can go down to a tolerance of a millionth of an inch. It took major capital investment to do this, but without it they would be just another podunk machine shop grinding crankshafts for the local rednecks' engine rebuilds. Staying too small can put you out of business just as fast as overexpansion.
This is off the subject as far as 12-string necks go, but Ed Roman, who is a major Rickenbacker dealer and custom guitar builder, will take your 650 series Rickenbacker and reduce the neck size (thickness, not width) and remove the excess heel for a reasonable fee in his custom shop. So you see, somebody is already responding to Rickenbacker owner needs. To answer the guy who posted the original question, if enough people keep asking for a wider 12-string neck, you will get that wider neck from somebody. We just hope it is RIC.
You can check out Ed's Rickenbacker mods at http://www.edromanguitars.com
One construction method that might work would be to tool up to make ALL the necks wider, then to have a secondary manufacturing step that brings the neck DOWN TO THE EXACT SIZE AND SHAPE REQUIREMENTS OF THE CUSTOMER for a small custom fee. This is the age of modern CNC machining, and since you can always remove some wood, but not put it back on, it is the way to go. The CNC machine tool operator simply clamps the neck in a jig, selects the correct computer program to perform the specific operation, and hits the GO button. I have seen gun parts made in this manner by a local independent machine tooling shop, and he can do small runs at an economical price. It becomes about as cheap to have a dozen neck size/profiles as it does to have only two, since you only have one size of neck blanks sitting up in the racks awaiting their future owner's "Call to Life". As Mr. Hall will verify, the CNC machine tool that can do this will cost major $$$$, BUT once you have this baby on the shop floor AND a trained operator to do the programming, you CAN do contract work to fill up any unused time for the man & machine. It thus becomes a profit maker, and not a capital waster. The reputation for quality that Rickenbacker enjoys would help to win contracts for outside work, and produce profits for future growth. This is just an idea, but others have done it.
There seems to be the mistaken idea running wild on this forum that enjoying growth tends to put companies out of business or reduces the quality of their products. UNREASONABLE growth is what ruins companies. I think Daimler-Benz would tend to disagree with the "keep-it-small" mentality, and nobody is calling their products pieces of mass market junk, even if they are one of the biggest automobile manufacturers on the planet. Everywhere I have been on this planet, Mercedes-Benz automobiles are usually the most common luxury car running around, except for the USA where Cadillac and Lincoln have a pricing advantage. They could not produce the automobiles they do at the price they do if they were not a large company with high profits that is able to take advantage of the latest manufacturing methods. But that's the rub...........RIC seems to want to keep just as much hand labor in the processs as it possibly can, somewhat along the lines of Rolls Royce. We all know which brand of automobile is now responsible for bringing the most new technology to the marketplace at the lower price, and it was growth and profits that allowed it to happen along with giving the customer what they wanted and needed at a price they could afford. That's business savvy. I might also add that my Ford F-150 has been completely free of any major problems since buying it new, and it has about 112K miles on it now. Still firing smoothly on the original spark plugs and it uses no oil between oil changes even now. I haven't had to do so much as to even change a burned-out light bulb. Rolls Royce doesn't do any better than that. Ford has more engineering dollars to spend on better technology. It's grow or die in the business world.
I have a friend that works in a tool & die shop that does work at close tolerances for major companies like Remington Arms. His standard working tolerance is half a thousandth, and his employer owns machine tools that can go down to a tolerance of a millionth of an inch. It took major capital investment to do this, but without it they would be just another podunk machine shop grinding crankshafts for the local rednecks' engine rebuilds. Staying too small can put you out of business just as fast as overexpansion.
This is off the subject as far as 12-string necks go, but Ed Roman, who is a major Rickenbacker dealer and custom guitar builder, will take your 650 series Rickenbacker and reduce the neck size (thickness, not width) and remove the excess heel for a reasonable fee in his custom shop. So you see, somebody is already responding to Rickenbacker owner needs. To answer the guy who posted the original question, if enough people keep asking for a wider 12-string neck, you will get that wider neck from somebody. We just hope it is RIC.
You can check out Ed's Rickenbacker mods at http://www.edromanguitars.com
-
ricnvolved
THANK YOU Paul Franklin and Philip Canard for your latest posts. Especially to you Phil for your last one. Like you, I am firmly convinced that REASONABLE expansion in production doesn't HAVE to mean a decrease in top-shelf quality. And the changes you suggest concerning neck dimensions & sizing thereby giving buyers a commonsense choice are highly interesting.
Anyway, you 2 guys stated the case far better than I could have. Definitely food for thought.......
Anyway, you 2 guys stated the case far better than I could have. Definitely food for thought.......
With respect Philip, Daimler Benz merged with Chrysler in order to give itself a cheaper range and secure access to a new market (and labor pool). The result has been a huge financial drain on Daimler and the jury is out on what the long term effect will be. The market is very nervous as they continue to post huge losses. Most Benz owners (and I'm one) probably don't see it as a good thing. BMW's attempt to diversify with Rover was an total disaster. Remember these are huge companies with public funding, not family businesses.