Negative neck pitch in a 4003 and neck setup.

[TTA]

Is negative neck pitch a thing for 4003 bases (mid 90’s with thin neck)? I ask because the paint around the neck heel is cracked on e and g sides, but only on the front of the bass. On the back side of the neck heel there is no sign of separation.

How can one identify negative neck angle? Vs a nexk that just has too much relief? Straighten it and if it has a negative angle vs the body than you are in trouble?

If a neck has plenty (arguably too much) relief, and you get terminal fret buzz above the 12th fret on the a and e strings… is saddle height too low?

When capoing the 1st fret and fretting the final fret, it a credit card thickness a good target? After that raise your bridge to minimize buzz?

How do you decide you need a taller or lower nut grove?

[thx1955]

Hi John,
Welcome to the Forum, if you had pictures it would help immensely in trying to diagnose what the issue may be.

[TTA]

Sighting down the neck on the e side. Trust me when i say that the heel is slightly proud, and when i get the neck this straight, it starts to bow back and frets 4-5 become a high point. Then a dip, 3 credit cards clearance at fret 9 (fretting 1 and last), then back up to the heel

Try these photos but i am not sure if they will be a ton of help alone

[TTA]

[TTA]

I tried straightening the e side of the neck again.

I can lessen the dip (that i see between the heal to about fret 14). In doing so it is less, but i get the classic “bow back” on the top side of the neck with a high point at the 5th fret.

Now fretting 1 and the last, the 9th fret is maybe 3 busisness cards clearance from the e string. But the string touches the 3rd/4th/5th fret

So my neck does not bow back, it s curves. To my eyes and ears, high at 4th fret, and heel.

G side is pretty straight and without fault.

Significant fret buzz on d/a/e 5th fret to the nut. Terminal fret buzz on d/a/e between the 12th fret and heel. 5th-12th fret plays amazing.

I assume s-curves are not normal? Always has been for this bass.
This time i set the neck the same way i do a 4001. No luck. Same result.

What are the next steps in working to resolve this, outside a cheeky answer to sell and get a different bass?

I will say that now the open g and a strings buzz. Last time that happened to me it was when i went ultra thin gauge on my 4001. As a test i resolved it by putting a sliver of low gauge string in the nut slot first.

[lumgimfong]

Nut height check:
To the best of my memory, depress any string at 2nd or 3rd fret ( I forget which) and look between the bottom of each string and the top of the first fret. Should be able to see just a smidgeon of daylight between them. Just a little. If higher than a mm I think nut too high or slots too shallow. But look on YouTube to double check my statements. Plenty o videos there on how to do this.

Negative neck angle: Do you mean the neck tilts backward too much after it emerges from between the wings? I have heard this can happen. A neck reset would fix it but I am not sure how to definitively check for this.

Neck relief and action: Just for reference - My 4003 bass has a credit card (just barely lifts the string as it passes under it) at the 9th fret with first fret and last fret depressed on the Low E side. Its a little tighter squeeze on the G side. I have 6/64ths action on all strings at 17th fret (nothing pressed) as measured from bottom of strings to top of fret wire. No unruly buzzing. At less than a credit card I start to get buzzing below the 5th fret, which isn't bad and kinda adds to the bass growl sound. Too much of course is not good. Rest of neck is good.
Try setting the heights like mine is and see if that resolves things for you.

If not and you think you have an S shaped neck, this is what I would do but only if you have experience adjusting these truss rods and you have good judgment about use of force (I am not a luthier. I just like to work on my basses and try before sending it to a repairman).
I would take all the strings off, one at a time. Then fully loosen the T rods till they are neutral with no resistance in either direction. Lay it on the bed with only body and neck heel touching bed. Neck and headstock completely hangs in the air off the bed. Site down neck as it hangs in the air. Any s curve? If not, Re-snug rods equally just a little. Enough to feel the first engagement (1/4 turn tops) as you turn them clockwise as you view them from top of headstock. Install strings. Tune up. Get neck straight to the credit card height as mentioned above with T-rod (according to 4001 or 4003 technique - whichever your model requires) and see if it turns out better and eliminates the S curve. Getting it straight enough may take time and might require repeated slackening of the strings and using gentle pressure on the headstock as it hangs in air while a friend holds the body in place on the bed, to help move it and then re-snugging t rods while manually held in new position. Even on a 4003. Once on a Gibson bass I had to brace the body and then move the neck by hand. I put middle finger pressure on the center end of headstock to get it to move enough in the direction I wanted then re snugged the t rod as I held it in place.


If problems persist I would take it to a reputable luthier. They will know what to do. Hope this helps. I am sure you already know a lot of this though.

[TTA]

Yeah, i have tried the manual technique (4001 truss rod adjustment style) to adjust things.

I guess my frustration is that i cant get it flat on the e side… using the 4003 or 4001 method. Same for others. Getting tired of giving it to someone, waiting 2 weeks, only to be told they cant do better. Mind you… i go through phases… try to get someone to fix it. Fail. Try myself… do better but fail, give it to someone else… fail. Live with it until i forget the frustration.

I did order a neck ruler.

I am not against starting from scratch. What will a “bad neck” look like that is fully unloaded?
How do i know if my bridge is too high or low? Is there a good guide to neck setup from scratch?

[lumgimfong]

For what it is worth, I saw two 4003 that both had S necks in a store - brand new.
Also, the old ceo of ric in a thread about neck issues speculated that hanging a bass with neutral trods and no strings by a wall hanger for a long time might help. But who knows?
I once adjusted trods under string tension on a Pbass and it made an s. But brought it to my tech and he fixed it. Not sure what he did.

[Dirk]

The neck has certainly moved, that's why the chips in the finish.

And the second neck picture is way too much back bow. I would expect that to be straight.

Also I find it's easier to view down the neck from the body end, not the neck end.

A straight rule across the top of the frets will tell you where the problems are.

Well good luck, you can keep guessing and trying things, but it may be time to get it to an actual Ric capable luthier.

[TTA]

The neck has certainly moved, that's why the chips in the finish.

And the second neck picture is way too much back bow. I would expect that to be straight.

Also I find it's easier to view down the neck from the body end, not the neck end.

A straight rule across the top of the frets will tell you where the problems are.

Well good luck, you can keep guessing and trying things, but it may be time to get it to an actual Ric capable luthier.

I assumed the neck could not really move as the front and back side of the neck are firmly attached with no cracks or displacement. Or is separation at only the top near the heel a thing? And why is the g side fine for setup, but still has cracks?

The backbow is only between 1st and 5th frets. In trying to straighten the dip in the 12-14th fret, i only accomplish back-bowing the top of the neck.

I have my pickup cover on, so body viewing is difficult. Might be worth removing.

To me, the solution for this bass is aggressively filing the frets at the heel, or removing them, lowering the heel, refretting, refinishing the fretboard (the finish of the fretboard was lifting around the frets when i got it used. Not sure why.

Just not sure it is worth it.

Being on the atlantic coast of canada, there is sadly no such thing as a ric experienced Luther as far as i know. But i knew of one good one… just not sure if he still works. He was a certified master craftsman for gibson and fender. I assume it is shipping to the usa both ways, and at least 1000$ work. New bass might approach being cheaper

For the cost of fixing a neck that may have more baseline issues… this may become a wall art bass.

I think the straight edge will confirm what i know.

[lumgimfong]

Do you know what tension your string set is? Not the gauge of the strings but the tension of the set? If you are using a higher tension set (like over 180lbs)and had to crank down the truss rods to get the neck “straight” enough to counter excess relief, I could see the over tightening causing S curving. Maybe try a lighter tension set and start from the rods in neutral and see what happens. D’Addario lists their set tensions for all their string sets on their website. You could try a 150lb set .

[TTA]

I forget the tension but they are 40-100 or 45-100. I dropped tension to see if it would help. I have 35-95 waiting if needed. I had thought about tension, but my armchair logic says that the lower the strong tension, the higher you need to make the action anyway.

I ended up making the neck straight on sight (be damned with the business card at the 9th fret. I got it pretty good by eye, and no back bow near the nut. I raised the bridge, especially the d and a strings (i had issues with too strong of output on those strings with the bridge pickup… mostly solved). Still fret buzz if i dig in, but that is ok. The buzz is no longer terminal. I have buzz on the e string above fret 12, but i can live with that as i am usually not up there on the e string.

Clearance (fretting nothing) at the 12 fret is about 7/64ths on the e side so not bad at all. This is a v2 bridge. Pretty easy to set up. Just need to intonate now.

Thanks for the help

[lumgimfong]

Congrats! Glad you got the neck straight with no unacceptable buzzing.
What year is this bass?

[Dirk]

Nice,
a lot of times it takes multiple attempts to get things right.

At this point your slight buzzing issues should be remedied by slight bridge height adjustment.

To me a straight neck and the string buzz is what defines Ric tone with rounds.
But you can use that to optimize the neck from top to bottom. Just raise the bridge to where you want the buzz to be.
It doesn't take much and I'm amazed at a tiny adjustment brings it into the perfect spot.

[TTA]

This is a 96. Nice super thin neck. Just a bit fussy.

The bridge adjustment was the trick. All good now. I like some fret buzz when i dig in. The A needs to go up slightly more.

My neck ruler just arrived today so it will be fun to measure it.