4003S mono wiring

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Laird
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4003S mono wiring

Post by Laird »

I have three recent basses. Two 4003 models and a 4003S. All were built around 2015-2017. I'll also mention that I have a 1979 4001 and have been playing Rics since my first mapleglo in 1975 so I'm fairly familiar with them. Back in the 70's I discovered that the bridge pickup sounded slightly better when a standard cable was plugged into the "Ric-o-sound" stereo jack. Later investigation revealed that the mono-izing of the circut at the "standard" output jack causes a slight tonal weight on the pickups even when they are solo'd at the toggle switch because the pickups still see the full circut. When run from the stereo jack they are discreet and sound better.
So.......getting to my question, my 4003S has a very balanced pairing of pickup output. Really good. The other two regular 4003 basses have poor balance between the pickups. All three basses are set up the same with regard to action height and string distance from the pickups. All three basses have the push/pull circut. All three have the same new-style pickups with the adjustable slugs.
Does anyone know if the 4003S basses are wired differently than the 4003 stereo bass's version of tying the pickups together at the mono output via a switching jack? Even the behaviour is somewhat different when you run all the vol and tone pots wide open and then gradually back off either volume pot. The mono 4003S bass sounds much better and "blends" better. The two stereo basses suck at the mono jack. Did they accomplish mono with a different method than they used on the stereo basses?

Are these two totally different circuts?
This is not a pickup height adjustment issue. They're right where I like them for the string response. It's the imbalance and peculiar behaviour of the circut that I find weird.
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espidog
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Re: 4003S mono wiring

Post by espidog »

Hi Laird and welcome. :)

I can't answer your query about whether the mono basses are wired differently, but you do raise an interesting point: that on the stereo basses, when one is plugged into the mono output jack and using the selector switch to take the neck pickup out of circuit, the signal from the bridge pup is still being loaded down by the track resistance of the neck pickup's volume pot, and this is bound to make it sound a bit duller. Likewise the other way round: select the neck pup and its signal will be loaded down by the presence of the bridge pup volume pot.

The only way around this loading issue that I can see would be to re-wire the bass so that the selector switch sits between the outputs of the volume pots and the jack socket(s). That way, selecting one pickup would disconnect the other pickup and all of it's associated tone/volume gubbins. The only downside to this is that unless you physically moved the selector switch to be near the jack sockets (neither practical nor aesthetically desirable), you'd end up with some long trails of wire back and forth from the volume pots to the switch and back again to the jack sockets. Feasible if it was screened wire, I suppose. A bit faffy, though.
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lumgimfong
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Re: 4003S mono wiring

Post by lumgimfong »

You could mod your 4003 bass harnesses into 4003s harnesses.
No-one needs ric-o-sound anyway.
Last edited by lumgimfong on Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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aceonbass
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Re: 4003S mono wiring

Post by aceonbass »

The circuitry in all current 4003 basses is the same. Only the output jack wiring is different in that it allows for separation of both pickups via the stereo jack. Otherwise, plugging into the mono jack, which shorts both outputs together, with result in exactly the same tonal output as in a 4003S. Plugging a mono cable into the stereo jack eliminates the neck pickup from the output signal because it has no ring contact point.
Laird
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Re: 4003S mono wiring

Post by Laird »

Thank you for the replies. I pretty much figured that the wiring would be the same as Dane has said. But I can't account for the unique behaviour of the 4003S bass vs. the two stereo models. One of them in particular has a very low output neck pickup compared to the bridge. Or conversely, an extra juicy bridge p.u.

Modern production shouldn't be giving us pickups with overly huge differences in output, so I'm assuming that this may be a cumulative effect of the tolerances of potentiometer values or perhaps there's different pots in these basses as well. Or, I might very well have a weak pickup. I'm going to do some investigating today and see what I can determine.
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Isaac
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Re: 4003S mono wiring

Post by Isaac »

What I might do, in your situation, is measure the resistance of the pickups and the potentiometers. Might be revealing.
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aceonbass
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Re: 4003S mono wiring

Post by aceonbass »

The pickups will measure about 12k ohms,. The tone pots will measure about 275k, and the volume pots(although they're the same) will measure about half that because they're wired in series to a mono output.
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lumgimfong
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Re: 4003S mono wiring

Post by lumgimfong »

Just for more data:
In my complete 2016 4003 stereo harness ( which I don’t use anymore as harness is out of the bass and just sits in a shelf cabinet now ) my pots read:
295
286
312
and 311/312 on the push pull tone knob between decks depending on which way post is rotated fully and if in push or pull position.
Stock neck HB1 reads 12.04
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aceonbass
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Re: 4003S mono wiring

Post by aceonbass »

lumgimfong wrote:Just for more data:
In my complete 2016 4003 stereo harness ( which I don’t use anymore as harness is out of the bass and just sits in a shelf cabinet now ) my pots read:
295
286
312
and 311/312 on the push pull tone knob between decks depending on which way post is rotated fully and if in push or pull position.
These values on the tone pots is part of the reason the tone of modern Ricks is darker than much older ones were. Vintage tone pots were 500k Ohms with 8k Ohm pickups, while modern pickups spec out at 12k. The 8k rating of current Toaster pickups is why they sound clearer, and brighter that current hi-gains.
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lumgimfong
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Re: 4003S mono wiring

Post by lumgimfong »

I use a 1MEG volume with toaster now. It is the brightest pup Ric makes now as far as I have tried.
It reads 7.16
The volume pot is 900-something,iirc
Just waiting to get a toaster for the neck position next.
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aceonbass
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Re: 4003S mono wiring

Post by aceonbass »

Something just occured to me. Although the main harness is the same in mono and stereo Ricks, when in mono, there is a jumper wire between the C3 lugs of both volume pots that connects them in series to the output jack. When you have Rick-O-Sound, that wire isn't there. Instead you have separate shielded output wires leading to a stereo jack which (even when these are shorted together at the mono jack) makes it a parallel circuit. Alhough this makes no difference in the Ohms measured at the pots or output jack, there could be some subtle difference in tone between the two wiring types.
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ram
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Re: 4003S mono wiring

Post by ram »

Damn Dane, that is why I like you ... great detective work!! Sherlock would be proud of you!
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Korladis
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Re: 4003S mono wiring

Post by Korladis »

What if you just omit the tone knobs entirely?
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jps
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Re: 4003S mono wiring

Post by jps »

Korladis wrote:What if you just omit the tone knobs entirely?
I have on two of my old ZON basses, and on the 4004L SPC.
Laird
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Re: 4003S mono wiring

Post by Laird »

aceonbass wrote:Something just occured to me. Although the main harness is the same in mono and stereo Ricks, when in mono, there is a jumper wire between the C3 lugs of both volume pots that connects them in series to the output jack. When you have Rick-O-Sound, that wire isn't there. Instead you have separate shielded output wires leading to a stereo jack which (even when these are shorted together at the mono jack) makes it a parallel circuit. Alhough this makes no difference in the Ohms measured at the pots or output jack, there could be some subtle difference in tone between the two wiring types.
If the volume pots were wired in series, wouldn't turning either of them to zero (with the other pickup on full) mute the entire output of the bass, similar to a Les Paul where even with the pickup selector in the center postion turns off both pickups? That is not the case on my 4003S. Not meaning to be argumentative, just trying to fully understand and sort through this. I run my tone controls wide open, but the two 4003 basses are just ever so slightly "brighter" than the 4003S, and the "mix behaviour" of the volume controls is certainly different on the 4003S bass as well, compared to the two 4003 models. And I'm talking about how they all behave at the mono jacks, as I don't use the Ric-0-Sound stereo jack.

Thanks you all for your replies so far.
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