Why does my bass sound this way?

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lumgimfong
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Why does my bass sound this way?

Post by lumgimfong »

Just got my new neck pup installed after having a dead neck pup for over a year.
So my 4003 bass is this electronics setup:

(2) HB1 hum buckers
(1) 500k Volume control pot
(1) 500k tone control pot
(1) three way Switchcraft switch, like on normal 4003 basses, but this is the straight short switch, not the right angle.
(1) .022uf cap.
(1) mono jack

Here is the issue:
1. Neck pup alone sounds great.
2. Bridge pup alone sounds great.
3. in middle switch position, both pups together sound nasally and quieter than the pups when they are played alone.

Any idea why this happens?
I have not had a functioning neck pup on this bass in a while and just got it all put back together. So I don't remember if it sounded this way originally or not.
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jps
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Re: Why does my bass sound this way?

Post by jps »

lumgimfong wrote:Here is the issue:
1. Neck pup alone sounds great.
2. Bridge pup alone sounds great.
3. in middle switch position, both pups together sound nasally and quieter than the pups when they are played alone.
The pickups are out of polarity with each other. Check the leads at the switch, first.
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lumgimfong
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Re: Why does my bass sound this way?

Post by lumgimfong »

Each of the HB1’s leads are wired this way:

Red wire to its signal blade lug (neck or bridge).
The blue/shield pair wrapped, then to the big center ground lug then a black jumper from that lug to back of volume pot.
The clear/black pair wrapped and tucked away under heat shrink, per Ric instructions.
The two signal output lugs on opposite side of the switch are pressed together then jumper to signal lug of volume pot.

Both the grounds and signal wires checked out for continuity along their respective pathways, also correct when switch in neck or bridge or middle position.
So, electronically everything checks out signal path wise.

Could this be the dreaded mid scoop due to phase cancellation I have heard about if you run a pair of pickups into a master volume (or even separate volumes at the same level)?
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Dirk
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Re: Why does my bass sound this way?

Post by Dirk »

Yep it does sound like phase cancellation to me too.
Just reverse 1 or the other hot wires, it's an easy test.

If not, then perhaps a failing switch?
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lumgimfong
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Re: Why does my bass sound this way?

Post by lumgimfong »

The switch is new and in good shape.
I am not sure how to reverse the hot wire.
I have three lead bundles:
1. red - currently soldered to signal blade lug for the signal coming from the pup.
2. black/clear wrap - currently wrapped together and set aside under heat shrink.
3. blue and bare shield wires - ground.

Since I am using the red wire on the neck pup for hot, do you mean use the back/clear instead?
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jps
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Re: Why does my bass sound this way?

Post by jps »

lumgimfong wrote:3. in middle switch position, both pups together sound nasally and quieter than the pups when they are played alone.

Could this be the dreaded mid scoop due to phase cancellation I have heard about if you run a pair of pickups into a master volume (or even separate volumes at the same level)?
I don't see how the sound could be both nasally and scooped at the same time. :?

Do you experience a loss of bass/bottom end with both pickups on, compared to each one individually?

Maybe, the problem is due to the Gibson-style switch instead of the proper Rick-style one? :wink:
maxwell
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Re: Why does my bass sound this way?

Post by maxwell »

This sort of stuff has always been elusive to me, too. So, poking around the Internet I found some interesting links, most belonging to Fralin pickups, but the concepts are universal. Take a look if you have the inclination. I only scanned the articles, and "switching the leads" to reverse phase is still elusive; how, exactly do you do that? There must be a YouTube video on that somewhere.

Here's the sort of introductory article. Scroll down a few lines to, "IMAGINE THIS SCENARIO:" Sound familiar? :wink:
https://www.fralinpickups.com/2017/01/2 ... -polarity/

"CHECKING THE PHASE (NEEDLE METER):" about halfway down.
https://www.fralinpickups.com/2017/11/2 ... r-pickups/

https://www.fralinpickups.com/2020/04/1 ... kup-phase/

https://www.fralinpickups.com/2020/04/1 ... umbuckers/

https://www.fralinpickups.com/2020/09/2 ... ple-leads/

https://www.harmonycentral.com/forums/t ... r-pickups/

The articles are short. The last Blog-type is informative and somewhat dense (for me). Please consider posting before & after close-up photos of your wiring.


PS - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ar+pickups
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lumgimfong
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Re: Why does my bass sound this way?

Post by lumgimfong »

Same switch as Ric just straight shaft not right angle. Same anount of lugs. 1 ground 2 hot 2 output.

I don’t hear a loss of bass just the mids and the highs seem to be quieter. Like pinched sounding.

Here is a sound sample: https://soundcloud.com/user-222948482/4 ... ition-test

1. First is the bridge pup. I play a major arpeggio and then a scale and then open A and then you will hear the selector click over to:
2. Neck pup, I play the same, then switch over to:
3. Middle selector position/both pups.

Let me know what you think. I don't know, maybe this is a normal 4003 middle position sound.

Thanks for the help. Thanks for the article links. I read a couple already.

Sorry if any "music" or ads auto play after my sample track, I don't know how to turn that stuff off. It is a free version of the soundcloud so I guess it includes ads.
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espidog
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Re: Why does my bass sound this way?

Post by espidog »

Hi Michael,

I've listened to your soundclip. What I'm hearing is completely normal. You have your 2 pickups wired the same way as each other, and this is exactly what I would expect to be the result when the outputs of both pickups are combined 50/50.

The centres of the pickups are a fair old distance apart (about 4½ inches apart on my 4003). Therefore, while each pickup on its own sounds rich and full of midrange, their outputs are actually slightly different from each other in time. This time difference puts the outputs of the two pickups out of phase with each other across a lot of the midrange frequencies. The actual picture is a bit more complex than that: it's more of a "sum-and-difference" effect, with some harmonics being cancelled out and others boosted, but effectively the midrange harmonics get mostly cancelled out.

Historically, this is why the "vintage tone" cap existed in the first place. In the old days, before it became a switchable option, it was wired in permanently. Its object was to filter out a whole load of midrange and LF frequencies from the bridge pup, so they wouldn't interfere with/cancel out the midrange and LF coming from the neck pup.

Even on 4003 basses with no "vintage tone" cap, but with the independent volume control for each pup, it was possible to adjust out the midrange scoop by simply backing off one or other of the volume controls a wee bit. With your bass having only the one master volume, you don't have that adjustability at your disposal.

So, your options... You could install a switchable "vintage tone" cap on the output of your bridge pup. Very easy to do. It may involve you installing a mini toggle switch on your pickguard, and you may not want to do this for reasons of visual aesthetics. It's your call.

Alternatively, you could swap the polarity of one of your pups. This also is very easy to do. On the pup you want to alter, you swap the red wire for the blue one: i.e. you detach the blue wire from the bare shield and solder it to the "hot" tag of the selector switch. You then solder the red wire to the bare shield wire (like the blue one was before) and connect those to the negative side (ground). You don't need to touch the black/clear wires - leave them alone. Job done!

Doing this polarity swap will result in the opposite effect to the one you're getting now: everything that was removed by phase cancellation will now be boosted by phase addition. Instead of a scooped-out sound with thin, clean top end detail, you'll get a fat, midrange-heavy sound with the low end and high treble somewhat rolled off.

Hope that helps! :wink:
2004 4003 JetGlo
Epiphone Jack Casady
Ovation Magnum 1
Mania VTB-4BS
Dean Stylist w/ John Birch Magnum II pups
Yamaha BB414
Trace Elliot VA350/GP11 Mk1
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lumgimfong
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Re: Why does my bass sound this way?

Post by lumgimfong »

Thanks!
As long as it is normal and I didn't mess anything up I am ok with the sound.
One day I might try to swap the leads, like you say and see if I like that better.
But I might not like highs cancelled, so I will keep it the way it is for now.
I am happy with the neck and bridge pups as they sound alone.
Someone also mentioned using a blend knob instead of a toggle switch and keep the blend knob biased a little one way or the other when using both pups together to eliminate the cancellation effects.
I might try that one day, too.

I remember when I had the stock noisy 4 control setup on the bass with the stock HiGains, the bass also sounded "phasey" when I played with both pups on and at full volume.
Like a swirly sound as I would play up and down the neck.

I think this way sounds better than it did stock, especially now with the shielding and Humbuckers making the bass noiseless!
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espidog
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Re: Why does my bass sound this way?

Post by espidog »

Of course you could also go for a best-of-both-worlds solution: adding a phase-reverse switch to one of the pups. 8)
2004 4003 JetGlo
Epiphone Jack Casady
Ovation Magnum 1
Mania VTB-4BS
Dean Stylist w/ John Birch Magnum II pups
Yamaha BB414
Trace Elliot VA350/GP11 Mk1
Peavey TB-Raxx
2 BFM Omni 10.5 crossfire cabs
Roland Bass Cube 100
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aceonbass
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Re: Why does my bass sound this way?

Post by aceonbass »

You haven't said whether you run both volume controls at the same level when you experience a "mid scoop". If you are, then back off one of your volume controls a bit, and the sound will become fuller. I wouldn't worry about the pickups being out pf phase with each other. Wiring in these is pretty consistent. HB1's are however wired out of phase with RIC single coil pickups. It's too bad you didn't wire push-pull tone controls with coil taps for your HB1's. That's what the black & clear wires are for.
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espidog
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Re: Why does my bass sound this way?

Post by espidog »

aceonbass wrote:You haven't said whether you run both volume controls at the same level when you experience a "mid scoop". If you are, then back off one of your volume controls a bit, and the sound will become fuller.
Michael's bass isn't wired like a standard 4003, Dane. He doesn't have individual controls for each pickup: it all routes through a master Vol & Tone.
2004 4003 JetGlo
Epiphone Jack Casady
Ovation Magnum 1
Mania VTB-4BS
Dean Stylist w/ John Birch Magnum II pups
Yamaha BB414
Trace Elliot VA350/GP11 Mk1
Peavey TB-Raxx
2 BFM Omni 10.5 crossfire cabs
Roland Bass Cube 100
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aceonbass
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Re: Why does my bass sound this way?

Post by aceonbass »

espidog wrote:Michael's bass isn't wired like a standard 4003, Dane. He doesn't have individual controls for each pickup: it all routes through a master Vol & Tone.
Ahh...I missed that detail. That's the problem then. Since both pickups will always be at the same volume, there will always be a mid scoop/volume drop whenever they're combined. This one of the reasons that the stock wiring in 4004's is so inadequate. Simple isn't always better.
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espidog
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Re: Why does my bass sound this way?

Post by espidog »

A bit of possibly interesting related trivia for y'all...

A few years back, I made some sample recordings from the stereo jack output of my 4003. I've just been analysing the waveforms visually, and by zooming in on a tiny portion of the wave, it's possible to see the time delay between the waveforms from the two pups. It's approximately one millisecond. Here - take a look. The upper trace is the bridge pup, the lower is the neck:

Image
2004 4003 JetGlo
Epiphone Jack Casady
Ovation Magnum 1
Mania VTB-4BS
Dean Stylist w/ John Birch Magnum II pups
Yamaha BB414
Trace Elliot VA350/GP11 Mk1
Peavey TB-Raxx
2 BFM Omni 10.5 crossfire cabs
Roland Bass Cube 100
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