1964 365 pics, story, and questions

[analogpackrat]

Hi everybody--been lurking here for some time and finally got around to posting.

Ever since the mid-80's I've wanted a Rick guitar. There was a midnight blue 330 in my college town music store for several months, but I could never scrape together the $700+ to buy it. After I graduated, got a job, and moved to CA, my quest became serious (a.k.a. funded). In 1994 I bought my first Rick from a shop in Santa Clara. I had been calling them every week to see if any used Ricks had come in. That fateful Saturday I had called and they said "no," but I dropped by anyway. Lo and behold there was a JetGlo 365 behind the counter where the "ask before playing" grade used gear was kept. I asked to play it and ended up buying it.



Shortly after I bought it I removed the original control plate for safe keeping. I traced it to make a template and had a new guard cut by a local plastics shop. I then drilled it and put in a custom control setup. I wanted to be able to have any PU combination, true mixing, and a direct out capability (bypassing all vol and tone controls). After a few years the mini switches I used have started to fail. I'm in the process of putting the original control plate back on and simply wiring the mix knob as a middle PU volume.

Anyway, back to 1994...as I was chatting with the shop manager while debating whether to buy the guitar or not he told me the interesting history of this guitar. I gather that he knew some of the characters. I wish I had written all of this down at the time because I don't recall everything he said. Sometime in the 70's the guitar belonged to someone name Breen. He was in a Beatles cover band in SoCal, IIRC. Sometime in the late 70s or early 80s he got in an argument with his "jealous girlfriend." She decided to take her revenge on his guitar with a hammer. Before he could stop her she had rained several blows on the hapless instrument--at least one of which cracked the top around the slash hole. Two of the fretboad inlays are also cracked. The upper pickguard is missing and the lower one has a crack from the rear screw up to the bridge tone pot.



All of the pots date to 37th and 38th week of 1964. The jack plate date code is DL (December 1964). It has the newer silver inset knobs, but without the labeling:



Breen took the mangled guitar to some shop and they told him it was hopeless and that he should just part it out. Somehow a local luthier heard about it and couldn't bear to see the old girl stripped down like that. He said he could fix it and he did. The guitar was originally FireGlo, but after the repair it was refinished black for obvious reasons. Note the original overspray in the cavity (along with the markings 365-Z crossed out to A):



It appears to me to be refretted as well--perhaps the blows that cracked the inlays also damaged some frets. I'm not sure if the neck has been reset--it looks like it might have been, but then there is some FireGlo peeking out at the heel joint which maybe argues against that:



I was told that at the time of the repair a third PUP was added. There is evidence to support this. All three PUPs are long pole toasters. But the middle and neck measure in the 8-8.6k range while the bridge is 12.6k. The bridge PUP also has philips screws on the four corners as opposed to (worn plate brass) slotted screws on the neck and middle. The bridge toaster cover is also the shiniest while the middle has strong picking scratches on it (the neck is not quite as bad).





But the PUP wires tell a different story. The neck PUP has a thinner black shielded lead with a white inner insulator. The middle PUP has the same gray outer with white inner as the jack leads. While the bridge PUP has gray outer with black inner. Strange.



The strangest thing about this guitar is the tuning keys. They look and feel cheap and have a lot of backlash. They aren't Klusons or Van Ghents. What are they? Could they have been original? If they are I'll keep them on, but I hope they aren't because I would really like to put something better on this guitar:



The neck and sound hole binding has been artificially aged and now looks like it was kept in an airport smoking room. The rear checked binding doesn't look quite so bad. I have the original roller bridge, but it rattled badly and several brass rollers were out of round (more hammering?). I had a new replacement installed around 1996. I also have the original Ac'cent arm, but am missing the bridge cover. I've never taken the PUPs out to see if there is any evidence to confirm that the middle PUP was added later. I can't take a picture of it, but there are two or three ~3/8" bevelled wood blocks glued underneath the top near the sound hole. They are apparently part of the repair. I'm not sure if the back was removed to do this or if they were wedged in place from the sound hole while the glue dried. This guitar has a 7/32" top and thick X-braces.

I'm looking forward to getting the old girl all back together with the original guard and electronics. She's got a lot of personality and is still a looker despite her checkered past. If anyone has any info about the tuning keys I would appreciate hearing it! If you know something about this guitar or Breen that would also be really interesting to hear. Next time I'll post some pics of my somewhat unusual '72 360-12 which has the new style body, toasters, and an f-hole instead of a slash (I use it as my avatar).

Cheers,
A P

[longhouse]

I must say my blood went chill upon reading 'She decided to take her revenge on his guitar with a hammer. Before he could stop her she had rained several blows on the hapless instrument'.

[jimk]

She definitely had some anger management issues there. Inexcusable. Good luck restoring the guitar. Glad to have you aboard, by the way.
JimK

[analogpackrat]

Noel--yeah, my jaw dropped when the shop manager got to the hammer part of the story. I wasn't sure if the "jealous" part was guitar or groupie related--should have asked! It's a rock-n-roll veteran now. Jim--thanks for the welcome. I'm glad to be amongst fellow Rickenbacker enthusiasts.

So I finished re-installing the old guard this evening. The middle PUP wire was too short to reach the mix knob, so I ended up pulling it to put a longer lead on it. I'll post pics later, but the "routing" behind it looked fairly neat--evenly spaced row of Forstner bit holes all at the same depth. Whoever did it used a drill press and was careful. It was all black inside, so hard to say if it was there from the start or not.

Now I have a question about the PUP connections. There's a connection spot near the center of the unit--just offset from the middle two pole pieces, another at one end, and a small ground tab on one of the corner machine screw/nut. This pickup was wired with the center point grounded (and the case grounded at the tab, of course) with hot at the corner connection point. Is this correct? I duplicated it, but when I roll up the middle volume with the bridge PUP on it gets a sort of out of phase sound. I always thought something was amiss with this guitar, but I've never compared to another unadulterated 3 PUP model.

I also found out another reason I put new electronics in--all the pots are scratchy. Dangit. Looks like I might have to make another all-new guard with new electronics. I'd like to keep the original one in case I ever sell the guitar.

A P

[collin]

Hi Doug, welcome to the forum!

Your Ric is beautiful--especially your 360S (360 export style with "F-hole" ).

With the three pickups and vibrato, your Jetglo (black) Ric is called a 375. I'm guessing (unless the modifications were made by a SUPER detail oriented person), that the middle pickup is stock and original. The pickup routes were all done with a Forstner bit on a drill press. The markings inside the soundhole are irrelevant. Look inside any vintage 360, and it will read 365, open up any 330, and it will read 345 etc. They marked them way before the number of pickups or vibrato were ever decided (therefore marking them for what they could potentially end up being etc...).

The tuners are also likely stock. In 1966, Ric seems to have mixed in many tuner brands. Yours are indeed made by Van Ghent, and are mostly found on 1966 models (though they are still rare). I like them, personally. They are so funky and ugly that they look cool, and are different than the typical metal button Kluson types.

Shame about the old owner's lady friend. Any woman who is mental enough to take out frustrations on a guitar is dropping a BIG hint that she's crazy enough to kick to the curb....

Sounds like you ended up with a cool guitar out of it, so nice.


now.....have any stories on the export style 360S? That is a rarer model than you might imagine.....VERY cool.

[analogpackrat]

Collin,

Thanks! I realize a 3 PUP w/vibrato is a 375, but since I was told that it was originally a 2 PUP and the markings inside also indicated that I figured I should call it what it probably was when it was made. When I pulled the middle PUP and saw the neat row of Forstner holes I did start to doubt the story about the middle being added later. When I get the replacement pickguard and electronics ready to install I might just pull the other PUPs as well to have a look for comparison. If they are all the same way (depth, bit size, etc.) then maybe it was a 375 from the start.

Thanks also for the info on the tuners. They don't look like the other Van Ghents I've seen which is why I was confused. You can't really tell from my ****** picture, but the buttons are translucent mother of toilet seat. I don't mind the look, but the backlash is irritating. I also forgot to mention that the nut also appears to be the original bakelite one. I played it for about 30 minutes last night after getting it put back together...hard to put it down.

I'll start another thread on the 12-string later this week. I've never heard of a 360S. This one has the crushed pearl inlays and checkered binding on the back which I didn't think they made for export. It also has toasters. I have no back story on it other than that I bought it in April of 1996 in Palo Alto for $1200 with the original case. I was waffling about it when my GF (now wife) offered to pay for part of it for my birthday. Quite a different GF story than the 375! I've never taken the pickguard off to see if there are any markings inside. I thought it might have been a custom order. Date code is LI. More later.

A P

[collin]

Nice!

Another way you can kinda check is to take a long look at the upper pickguard. If the cut along the pickup side is clean, and looks like the rest of the pickguard edge, then it's likely original and was a three pickup model. If you look at your 12 string, you'll notice that 2-pickup pickguard uppers have a tab piece that goes between the pickups while 3-pickup varieties are flush along the edge.

As for your 12 string---export doesn't mean that it was actually exported. See, all the mid-late 60s 360s had checkered binding, crushed pearl inlays etc....just that for some reason, a batch was made up with F-holes instead of slash holes to satisfy overseas dealers (not necessarily Rose Morris, as this was after the RM deal was done or dwindling...). A good deal of them ended up in Italy, for some reason, and are mostly found on 335 or 345 models, while some rounded tops like yours (and a nice rounded top 4005 bass owned by our own Doctorwho- Gary Clauson), also feature the F-hole. These F-holes are slanted almost at a 1.5 o'clock position, more tilted than the famed Rose Morris series, and are positioned higher up on the guitar body.

Definitely way cool, and a nice conversation piece.

[analogpackrat]

Yeah, I know about the tab on the upper guard. Unfortunately the 36(7)5 was missing the upper guard when I bought it, so no clues there. I guess if I were to carefully dig through the black finish in the routed areas and find evidence of FG that would cinch it. But if the original routing were done post-finish there would be nothing there--no proof in that case.

On the 360-12...it's a 1972 model, so it seems unusual to me that it has toasters, checked binding, and the f-hole. Weren't hi-gains standard by then? I guess I'm going to have to have a look under the guard for markings and pot date codes. How far into the 70s did Rickenbacker make export models? Did they export deluxe models (shark fin inlays, fancy binding, etc.)? I have the Smith book, but it doesn't have much detail about this period.

Thanks,
A P

[Scastles]

Welcome, Doug.

You've got a couple of nice rare ones.

I have seen few of the 360S/12's. The last one, pictured below, was on eBay a year or so ago. The price was far more than what you paid for yours. It was a '67 IIRC. I don't even remember if it even sold. Economics and all at the time.

[collin]

On the 360-12...it's a 1972 model, so it seems unusual to me that it has toasters, checked binding, and the f-hole. Weren't hi-gains standard by then? I guess I'm going to have to have a look under the guard for markings and pot date codes. How far into the 70s did Rickenbacker make export models? Did they export deluxe models (shark fin inlays, fancy binding, etc.)? I have the Smith book, but it doesn't have much detail about this period.

Thanks,
A P

Hi Gains weren't standard until about mid '73, IIRC.

I mean...it is strange that it is a '72 model. Do check the pot codes....it will say a lot. It could also be a swapped jackplate......but I've also heard of stories about guitars sitting for ages in the early 70s, before being sold way after other similar guitars were sold. Could have also sat because it was export-spec, and the export deals had run dry by the late 60s. Also because Rickenbacker guitars were not big sellers in the early 70s....basses were the bread and butter at the time. The Smith book is a great read, but anybody will tell ya---the minute details are all a little vague or incorrect.

[beatlefreak]

welcome to the forum, Doug. Great guitars!

[sloop_john_b]

I mean...it is strange that it is a '72 model.

I don't think it's strange at all. On guitars made between, say, 1969 and 1974, the only consistent thing is the inconsistencies. 24 frets here, bound headstocks there, crushed pearl inlays once in a while, toasters, higains, etc. My opinion on this one is that it sat at Electro for at least three years before someone - in Italy, perhaps - ordered one.

[leftybass]

Hi Doug, and welcome....sorry it took me a bit to chime in here, but I've had too many irons in the fire lately......

If you would need any reference points on originality for your '64 365, I have a '64 360/12 that was made in the same month as your guitar. Mine is DL 793, you can see pics of it in the registry. Let's compare some notes...

BTW, it is my opinion that the tuners and the knobs are original and correct for your 365, and they are Van Ghent tuners. The knobs on your guitar are identical to the ones on my 360/12.

[leftybass]

I mean...it is strange that it is a '72 model.

I don't think it's strange at all. On guitars made between, say, 1969 and 1974, the only consistent thing is the inconsistencies. 24 frets here, bound headstocks there, crushed pearl inlays once in a while, toasters, higains, etc. My opinion on this one is that it sat at Electro for at least three years before someone - in Italy, perhaps - ordered one.

John Williams had one of these F-hole 12-stringers, and it had a 1972 sn#....

[analogpackrat]

Wow. Stan, that eBay Rick is identical to mine. I know it isn't mine because I don't own any blue sheets or curtains.

Interesting discussion about the gray period in the late 60s early 70s when all manner of combinations of parts went out on "standard" guitars. I'll open it tonight and take a few pics. Just out of curiousity--exactly when in the manufacturing process would the serial number get stamped on the jack plate? I wish I had asked more questions when I bought it. The guy who would know left that shop long ago and I have no idea where he is now.

A P