325c58 Output and Wiring

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Knave101
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325c58 Output and Wiring

Post by Knave101 »

Hello I'm new to this forum...and old to Ricks. I've been playing in a band with a 66 360 since the mid 80's. I just got a used but virtually new JG 325c58. Beautiful guitar....but the guitar has issues. First, I never liked the Accent on my 360 especially when compared to a Bigsby, so my R tailpiece 67 360WB took over as a more practicle live Rick. I also have a dozen old Gretsch's from the 50's and 60's and the Bigsby is the greatest tailpiece period. My new 325c58 is useless live with the Kaufman. 1/2 a song and it's out of tune. So I did a non reversile mod...put a Bigsby B5 on. Now it stays in tune and is really nice to play. But the output is so low. I switch to an old strat...and the output is virtually double. That's not the case on my old 360's.

Here's the question: the wiring looks untouched original..but the neck pickup tone is off when rolled counterclockwise, while the bridge pickup tone is off when rolled fully clockwise. That seems weird. In addition, the output just seems so low, particularly on the bridge pickup. Has anybody else experieced this. I doubt it's an amp issue.
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krick
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Re: 325c58 Output and Wiring

Post by krick »

There has been some talk about this before.

I believe the C58 pickups are very low output, something like 3.5Kohms which is supposed to be close to what the original 1958 325 models had.

I think the electronics are also wired differently than most other RIC models.
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jwilli
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Re: 325c58 Output and Wiring

Post by jwilli »

The pickups on my original '58 325 were: 2 in the mid 4k ohms and 1 at 8.25k ohms. This doesn't mean that ALL '58 325 p/ups were the same as mine.
If low output is a problem, I would replace the stock p/ups with the 7.4k toasters.
Knave101
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Re: 325c58 Output and Wiring

Post by Knave101 »

Thanks for the replies. I was under the impression from a previous John Hall post that all the reissues were spec'd to 7.5kohm (which is what my 66 and 67 pickups measure up to)...no matter what the year. I'll try to measure these up....but since two are wired together that won't be easy. the bridge pickup can be isolated so I'll check that out when i get the chance.
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krick
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Re: 325c58 Output and Wiring

Post by krick »

The 325C58 pickup is very different from the standard Scatterwound Toaster as it has a full cover on the back just as the pickups made in 1958 did. The magnetic pole pieces inside are much smaller and I believe this is at least part of the reason for the lower output. By the mid 60's the pickups had evolved to have the pole pieces extend through a cutout in the baseplate but even then there were different lengths depending on where the pickup would be used.

If you wanted to install the Scatterwound Toasters on a 325C58, I believe you would have to do some body routing for the pole pieces to fit in. If you do the routing, you could even use some of the hotter Toasters that were sold before 2000 and measure around 12k ohms. I have these in my 1996 325V63 and they sound great.
Knave101
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Re: 325c58 Output and Wiring

Post by Knave101 »

Here are the impedance's on my 325c58. I measured directly at the the pickup selector switch...with the pickguard removed.

Bridge Pickup: 3.53 K
Middle + Neck: 1.77 k (which is 3.5ish each when you double...since they measure half in a parallel circuit)

That is quite a sparse winding.
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krick
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Re: 325c58 Output and Wiring

Post by krick »

I believe RIC's goal for the "C Series" was to reproduce these guitars as closely as possible to the original models. That included all of the good, as well as the not so good features of those early originals. I understand why they were built that way and appreciate them for what they are. There have been several other short-scale models available that I like better so I also have a 325V63 and some 1996 AFG reissues.
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Re: 325c58 Output and Wiring

Post by Knave101 »

OK, So now I have a better idea of what's going on with the 325c58. I've purchased 3 in the past 2 months and I've compared them. I must say that the JG is exceptionally 'cool' looking...but the MG is beautiful. The Alder giving, in my opinion, nicer grain patterns than Maple (unless flamed or burled). All 3 are in mint like new condition and haven't been mucked with. They span the years of the 325c58 production run.

Here's the funny thing.

1. JG model. as stated before, the bridge pickup tone knob is off when turned counter clockwise. While the neck tone knob is off when clockwise as is usual.
2. MG model 1. Both tone knobs are normal (off) when fully clockwise.
3. MG model 2. Neck tone control..doesnt work at all. Bridge tone control is off when counterclockwise.


All the wiring is untouched condition. so while they may be great wood craftsman..I have to say that there is something a tad off in the electronics reliability department at Rick.
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glen_l
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Re: 325c58 Output and Wiring

Post by glen_l »

The factory wiring loom in a 325c58 is virtually identical to every 3 pickup wiring loom made by the company from 1959 onwards. The only difference to a modern Ric is the tone pots which are wired to operate in the reverse direction to normal (as were Rics from '58 until sometime in the early 60s). If your controls act differently you may have a replacement loom in it.

Long pole pickups first appeared late in '58, and were first used as a bridge pickup in some models, but not 325's. As far as I know there was only ever 2 lengths of magnet over the years. There were however, 2 different thickness of toaster pickup body. It doesn't involve the 325 though, because the thinner pickups didn't appear until the end of '64, and may have only been used on models were clearance was an issue (like the 615, 620 etc)

The 325c58 pickups are certainly wound on the lowest end of the range. Apparently a range of original pickups from the era were measured during the project, and the lowest value was selected. It was common to find both 5K and 8K pickups in '58 though.

The easiest way to create your own short pole pickups with higher gain is to buy the 7.4K scatterwounds and replace the magnets with short ones. Unfortunately these pickups have gotten very pricey to buy as spare parts. You could even buy replicas of the full rear covers if you like, but being aluminium, they're not likely to effect the magnetic properties. Do not route any Rickenbacker for different pickups please.

The other approach would be to have extra windings added to the existing c58 pickups. They're hard to open, but there is a mile of room left on the bobbins.
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Hotzenplotz
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Re: 325c58 Output and Wiring

Post by Hotzenplotz »

I would not touch the wiring nor the pickups!

To install a Bigsby is some period correct mod. The actual pickups on Your guitar are period correct, too. - So in the end the sound, too.

I prefer guitars that look the way they sound and vice versa. Especially the thin, rough and throaty sound of the elder-bodied C58 is soooo fine when it comes through the old specified pickups/wiring.

Some day I'll buy one...
Damn! RAS!


Just my weak two €s.
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FredC
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Re: 325c58 Output and Wiring

Post by FredC »

All the c58's have the low output pickups. I solved the problem by using a Seymour Duncan SFX-01 pickup booster. Man that REALLY did the trick. You only need to set it about 1/4 of the way up. (Note also - Many of the c58's left the Factory wired incorrectly. You can contact Rick for the fix)

Image

These are out of production but show up often on ebay. ModTone also makes one that's pretty decent for the price (MT-CB Clean Boost).
Rickenbacker 325c58 MG
Rickenbacker 325c58 JG
Rickenbacker 325v59 JG
Rickenbacker 360/12v64 FG
Rickenbacker 330/12 FG
vcartier
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Re: 325c58 Output and Wiring

Post by vcartier »

I use the Seymour Duncan SFX-01 pickup booster for my Telecasters to give me a warmer humbucker sound, similiar to the Clapton Stratocaster. I also started using it for all of my electrics, sans my Gretsch Tennessee Rose. It really does a nice job with my Ric 325. It's cheap way to get more tone and boost!
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Medicus1963
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Re: 325c58 Output and Wiring

Post by Medicus1963 »

Hi,
I installed Glen´s loom in my 325C58 an it works very well with correct Potentiometers and the possibility to select every pickup separate or in combination !
This is a modification which is worth the price ! I do have another 325C58 without this modification, and it sounds different.
But the Bridge Pickup is not very weak compared to the other Pickups in both guitars.Tone potis are wired in both guitars to operate clockwise to roll tone off.
So Try Glen´s loom which is made after the correct perion specifications !

Peter
All you need is love and a rick !
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opticnerve
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Re: 325c58 Output and Wiring

Post by opticnerve »

glen_l wrote: The only difference to a modern Ric is the tone pots which are wired to operate in the reverse direction to normal (as were Rics from '58 until sometime in the early 60s).
Hiya Glen,

I hope you're well!

Regarding the reverse tone controls in the early '60s guitars & basses...is that by design of the pots, or the capacitors?

Thanks!
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glen_l
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Re: 325c58 Output and Wiring

Post by glen_l »

It's only the wiring of the pots that makes them work in reverse. You can quite easily change it to the more familiar method by moving the capacitor connection to the free terminal on the pot
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