What's the Fascination with Old Instruments?

[indianation65]

It's the "aroma" from old gear, and old cases!

...wisdom

[Sugarcane]

I have been buying and selling used and vintage guitars for years and was there at the outset of the madness over vintage guitars and the introduction of high prices. There were reasons why this happened. Higher prices for vintage guitars arose partially due to the fact that some companies had serious lapses in quality at certain points in time, such as Fender and Gibson. If the current production models were ****, players longed for the old ones, because they were made better. Some of it was due to rarity, if certain models were not produced in large numbers, like the Flying V and Explorer, the prices escalated. Some of it was due to hero worship. Guitarists wanted the same model their hero played and that guitar was in short supply, like the 58-60 Les Paul Standard Burst. All the British blues players wanted to sound like Eric Clapton at one point, so vintage Les Pauls became desirable, as they did here, when players saw Keith Richards and Mike Bloomfield playing Bursts.

Early vintage guitar dealers capitalized on all this and a new retail industry was born around 1975 or so. I was there and saw it happen. You had honest dealers like George Gruhn in Nashville, but also obnoxious and sometimes dishonest sharks, like the owner of Guitar Tr*****, right here in New Jersey, who preyed upon musicians who wanted the old guitars. I knew him quite well. He closed his store, took his money and got out of town very quickly.

Sometimes dealers get together and agree to drive up prices of guitars. It's call price fixing and it's illegal. I know for a fact that two prominent vintage dealers singlehandedly and surreptitiously raised the prices of Fender Jazzmasters and Jaguars years ago and the industry somehow followed suit. Now, you can't touch a vintage example of either of these guitars for under thousands of dollars. Prior to that, they were cheap and easy to find for a song.

Certain companies, like Guild and Rickenbacker, really didn't suffer the terrible quality issues as others did. Guild never had bad quality. They were very consistent over the years, but most Guild guitars are "sleepers" on the vintage market, compared to Gibson and Fender. Rickenbacker seems to have had consistently good quality. Martin had their issues in the 70's.

Buy what you like. If you have the money and want an old guitar, buy it, but don't look upon the purchase as an investment, unless it's a real blue chip collectible, like a pre-war Martin, or vintage Les Pauls, Strats and the like. Be an educated consumer.

This reply pretty much sums it all.

But I feel inclined to add a couple of thoughts.

The guitar market changed a LOT from the late 60s to the present days. And so did the customer view of the guitar. What once was a musician's tool, became an object of desire, a symbol of status, and finally a coveted jewel.

Back in the 50s and 60s, the concept of "vintage" or "high end" guitar obviously didn't exist as we know it nowadays. Nor did Fender, Gibson or Rickenbacker feature boutique shops. They'd do custom orders, regarding colors and specs, but these guitars were exactly what "custom" means: they were special orders meant to meet the customer's needs.

When the "vintage" fad began, and I'd date it around the late 80s, being highly fed by what our friend said above, especially the bad quality that major companies submitted to in the 70s, the "custom shops" started to become boutiques and of course, we're living in a profit-based society (which I have nothing against, at all).

So there y'all have it: old guitars are worth wazoos of cash, and most companies have custom shop named sections that make more expensive guitars, out of "premium" woods and high quality craftsmanship and great electronics (which are indeed good but hardly exceptional), that don't do anything much fancier than the "standard" production models (of course, I'm saying this regarding US made good stuff in general), but cost about twice or more.

Will an old or custom built instrument be necessarily better than a standard present-day guitar? Sometimes, yes. Some other times, not really. Especially on stage or in a studio recording room. But there's a fetish that makes people actually believe that faulty 50's pots are actually more desireable than brand new CTS ones that work perfectly. To each his own.

Anyway, there's a market niche for everyone. Musicians will often tell what's good and what's too much hype, collectors will have their own take on this, and cork sniffers, well... They'll throw stones. But that, my brothers, is the bare truth.

[bvstudios]

It's beginning to dawn on me that most of my guitars could be considered "old".. Even my 370/12 is 10 next year, while my Gretsch was built in 1970, the Fender acoustic dates from 1982, and the venerable Takamine 12 came to me in '86.

Hmm... maybe it's me. Maybe I am the one who's turning "vintage".

[Tommy]

It's beginning to dawn on me that most of my guitars could be considered "old"..

That's an interesting point. What exactly does qualify as vintage? Does old make something vintage?

Here's my 360/12. I got it brand new in 1992. That means this guitar is nearly 30 years old. Can it be sold as "vintage"?

[sloop_john_b]

It's beginning to dawn on me that most of my guitars could be considered "old"..

That's an interesting point. What exactly does qualify as vintage? Does old make something vintage?

Here's my 360/12. I got it brand new in 1992. That means this guitar is nearly 30 years old. Can it be sold as "vintage"?

No. "Vintage", specifically as it pertains to "vintage guitars", is a misnomer. It is in reference to a widely agreed-upon "golden age" of guitar manufacturing and, perhaps depending on the manufacturer, has a cutoff point.

For Rickenbackers, one could make the argument that the cutoff point should be September 1 1984, when John Hall purchased Electro-String from his father Francis Hall, rebranded as RIC, and completely modernized the operation and construction of the instruments. Another argument could be that, for basses, the cutoff point is when full-width inlays were initially discontinued in early 1973. Or when the guitars first shipped with 24 frets and higain pickups.

Whatever the agreed-upon end point, a 1992 Rickenbacker 360 (while a fine guitar I'm sure) is not a part of any "golden age" and has little to do with what I'd consider to be the obvious Rickenbacker golden age of 1954-1969.

[Happyface]

Not a totally new phenomenon. Back in 1967 or 68 the keyboard player in my band asked me to come over and check out a guitar. "My uncle in the Bronx gave me this. I'll sell it to you for $50."

Not exactly cheap back then for a high school student but within reach if I mowed more lawns or shoveled more driveways.

He took a small case out of the closet and opened it. Voila, a late 50s Les Paul gold top with P-90s.

Now, I mostly played bass back then, being a poor keyboard player and even worse guitarist. But I recognized what this was.

I bring this up because EVEN BACK THEN there was a premium bid for Les Paul's because Gibson stopped making them for a while in the 60s.

For some reason I was aware of that so I answered "Sure, I'd give you $50, but it is worth $500."

Couldn't f-over a friend.

Anyway, even then there were reasons to pay up for older guitars.

Now, I buy solely on playability, mainly neck profile. I have two 60s basses which just nail it along with four other basses that fit that requirement.

[Tommy]

That's an interesting point. What exactly does qualify as vintage? Does old make something vintage?

No. "Vintage", specifically as it pertains to "vintage guitars", is a misnomer. It is in reference to a widely agreed-upon "golden age" of guitar manufacturing and, perhaps depending on the manufacturer, has a cutoff point.

Thanks.

[Tommy]

It is in reference to a widely agreed-upon "golden age" of guitar manufacturing and, perhaps depending on the manufacturer, has a cutoff point.

It does beg the question who exactly determines these "golden ages" and which manufacturers are allowed to be in the club?

I don't imagine folks at this site in the '80s were running out buying BC Rich or Jackson pointy guitars with Floyd Rose systems; but those guitars really do represent a golden age of guitars for a style of metal music.

This is an '88 B.C. Rich Warlock. Beatle fans may not pay vintage prices for it, but don't you think a Megadeth fan might?

[bluewhale]

... Opinions, please ...

It might help if Eric Clapton would please chime in and explain what he was thinking when he (now famously) bought up batches of old electric guitars on his visits to the U.S. I think that was in the 1970s.

I think that another part of our fascination with pre-CBS/pre-Norlin guitars comes from a popular image of the kinds of people who built them - dedicated, humble, trustworthy, just doing their best to make an honest living. Even I know some of their names.

bluewhale

[sloop_john_b]

those guitars really do represent a golden age of guitars for a style of metal music.

100%. Part of what makes defining "vintage" complicated is that it's dependent on the interests of the individual and is dependent on the manufacturer.

I like early Jacksons and Charvels - my idols as a teenager played them. Thus, I consider a 1984 Jackson Randy Rhoads a vintage guitar, as would many. 1984 was smack dab in the middle of a watershed era for shred guitar players and shred guitars. For shred guitars and heavy metal, they represent that golden age.

[Tommy]

1984 was smack dab in the middle of a watershed era for shred guitar players and shred guitars. For shred guitars and heavy metal, they represent that golden age.

I did not listen to those bands other than what I saw on MTV, but those metal shredders from the mid '80s were talented folks. I didn't like what they were playing, but, boy, they could play. I was buying guitar magazines galore back then, and every single issue was wall to wall '80s metal shredders. I used to learn a lot of James Hetfield Metallica rhythms because I saw great value in learning that stuff. I can play mean rhythm because of those shredders.

And, yes, fans of those '80s bands would definitely see vintage value in Jacksons, Bitches, Charvels, and ESPs.

[teeder]

Im totally insecure I love the smell of older guitars.
I don't understand why buying what you like makes you insecure?
I like Rics,I like modern and old but I prefer old.
My fascination Bob is the way the older Xbraced models sound and feel with slim necks and small headstocks.
We like what we like.

No Scotty, it's completely black or white. You either buy newer guitars or you're snobby and insecure. There is no middle ground. Just admit that you're snobby and insecure like the rest of us.

I resemble that remark!

This makes me think about a thread on TB about custom shop Fenders.
I paid less for my all original '62 p-bass than what some reissues costs. Does that make me snobby and insecure? Now I'm confused.

[teeder]

Therefore, finding examples that haven’t failed (of ANYTHING that’s, say, 50 years old) is more and more rare every day.

I resemble this remark, too!

[sloop_john_b]

I paid less for my all original '62 p-bass than what some reissues costs. Does that make me snobby and insecure? Now I'm confused.

I'm really sorry to be the bearer of bad news Kevin, but yes, it does. I think Tommy was very clear early on in this thread.

(PS I would love to see a pic of that bass!)

[teeder]

*** Warning ***

Snobbery abounds in this picture!