4004Cii to 4002/4004LK Conversion

[cjj]

OK, anyone whose been following my thread on pickup placement knows that the original reason behind that was to figure out where to place a third pickup on my 4004Cii to get a placement similar to the 4002 making it similar to a 4004LK.

Well, after getting the measurements form various people (thanks for doing that guys!), I came up with the following picture representation for the locations of the pickups:

As we can see, the neck pickup location for the modern 4004Cii is pretty close to the one for the 4004LK, and probably more difficult than it's worth to move it. The bridge pickup on the modern 4004Cii is placed somewhere between the 4002 neck/4004LK mid pickup and the bridge pickup locations for the 4002, 4005, 4004LK.

So, stripping the previous diagram down to just the locations of interest, we get the following diagram:

The bottom diagram has the block shapes sized to the scale of an actual HB-1 just to see how things would actually fit.

From this we can see that the original 4004Cii pickups can be left where they are and the third pickup will have room to go at any of the other positions of interest, the 4002 neck/4004LK mid, or the bridge locations for the 4002, 4004LK, or 4005.

I'd really like to leave the top of my 4004Cii like it is, meaning not adding a pickguard type thing to cover any holes, so, that means leaving the original pickups in place and adding another one.

So, the question is, which of these locations will give me the most "interesting" sound? Since the original bridge pickup on my 4004Cii is mid way between these other placements, will I actually be gaining anything by putting a third pickup at one of these locations?

Of course, there's always the option of adding 2 more pickups, it looks like they would all fit, leaving only the question of where to place the bridge pickup, but that just might be going over the top...

[woodyng]

from my own experience,the bridge pu placement on the 4002 is great,and my 04 cii,which has the more rearward placement is pretty similarly close for the bridge pickup. i'm not sure what difference it's going to make in the sound(s) you can get,but it is awfully nice to play fingerstyle right on top of the rear pickup,as you can actually finger-thump against the pickup.

[rickaddict]

My opinion differs from Woody's (sorry Woody!). I personally think that the bridge pickup on my 4005 is just about worthless. Too close to the bridge to have any tones I enjoy hearing. And my 4002 bridge pickup isn't much different. On both of these basses I dial in very, very little bridge pickup.

I also am not much of a fan of the neck pickup tone from any of my 4001/4003/4004, or my 2030 GF. I choose the neck pickup on my 4005, but: a) there is no other choice for me because (as I previously mentioned) I don't like the tone from it's bridge pickup, and b) the 4005 is completely different animal from the 4000 series. I do dial in a little neck pup on my 4001's and 4003's, but very little.

So what would I recommend? If I had to put a couple pickups on a blank canvass 4000 series body, I'd probably put 'em both somewhere in the middle. Maybe where the 4002 neck pup is and where a 4004 bridge pup is (on the older 4004's with the more rearward spacing). It might look odd, but I'd like to hear how it would sound.

Just one man's opinion...I am prepared to dodge flying tomatoes!

[rickaddict]

I'd really like to leave the top of my 4004Cii like it is, meaning not adding a pickguard type thing to cover any holes, so, that means leaving the original pickups in place and adding another one.

So, the question is, which of these locations will give me the most "interesting" sound? Since the original bridge pickup on my 4004Cii is mid way between these other placements, will I actually be gaining anything by putting a third pickup at one of these locations?

Of course, there's always the option of adding 2 more pickups, it looks like they would all fit, leaving only the question of where to place the bridge pickup, but that just might be going over the top...

I probably didn't quite listen to your request before I wrote the above post, but...oh well! I guess what I'm trying to say is, I personally wouldn't carve up any Rick bass to put a pickup in the 4005 or 4002 bridge position.

[cjj]

No tomatoes from me. I doubt anyone here has much more than opinions based on what they've used (as opposed to a lot of experimental data from moving pickups to various locations), so opinions are exactly what I'm looking for!

[jakeox]

I think you should slap two more pickups in there and add a switch to swap between the original configuration, the 4002 configuration, and the LK configuration. If you're going to rout, go big!

[incubus2432]

Sorry I didn't contribute when you were asking for p/u placement measurements for the LK......things have been so hectic with house sale/buying shenanigans. It's no excuse but it's all I gots!

I like my LK p/u soloed and generally have it cranked in the mix with either/both of the other p/u's. It adds some clarity to my ham handed playing.

As far as what to do as far as placement I think aesthetically no placement will look right with your current configuration (IMO). Too cluttered I believe. My plan for my 3 p/u Cii monstrosity was to route off the top, fill the existing routes and put an exotic top on with LK spec'd layout. Of course I bailed on the project and sold the Cii but I think it is about the only way to do it with Ric worthy results.

[jps]

Unlike Jeff, I do like the tone of the bridge pickup mixed in equally with the neck pickup on my 4005WB. By itself, the bridge PU with the tone rolled about 70% down I get a nice burbly tone that is a bit bass shy so adding a bit of the neck PU helps there. I have no cap in-line with the bridge PU; does yours have the cap, Jeff?

I think four pickups is a cool idea, really, providing lots of options: 4005, 4004, 4001/3, 4002, not to mention individual PUs soloed. If it were mine, I would use separate toggle on/off switches for each PU, providing the most direct selection of PUs, along with a master volume and tone control. Possibly, on the neck PU I would have the switch be on/off/on with the second on position cutting the output of the PU a few dB to give the classic neck PU slightly rolled off relative to the bridge PU tone.

[rickenbrother]

My idea of the three pickup 4004Cii that CJ is seriously considering, is what I feel would be the ultimate 4004 pickup configuration. You could blend or solo any of the three pickups.
The bass pickup placed right up to the neck gives the thick buttery tone, the pickup in the middle gives the punch like a 4003 treble pickup and the pickup near the bridge gives the clarity and growl like the treble pickup of a 4002.
If I ever found myself with a Mapleglo or Fireglo Cii with the current pickup placement, it's what I would do.

[cjj]

Thanks for chiming in Joey! So, which position, exactly were you thinking about?

As for 4 pickups, I actually find myself drifting towards that solution a lot, now that I know it will actually fit. I still think is might look a bit too cluttered, but maybe not. I like the trebbly tone you can get with a 4001/4003 bridge pickup, and moving further towards the bridge seems like it would be a decent idea. There's an idea that the position of the 4002 bridge pickup catches some really good tones too, and I can't really move the current 4004Cii bridge pickup there without covering a huge hole. Oh, and just in case anyone doesn't know what bass this is intended for, here's what it currently looks like:

So you can see why covering this with some sort of pickguard is not high on my list.

The big thing with 4 pickups is what to do with them as far as wiring them up. My idea for 3 pickups was to replace the pickup selector switch with a 3rd stacked pot. I mean, really, the only thing a selector gives you is a faster way to turn off a pickup. Turning it's volume down all the way does the same thing.

I've got intentions to allow some switching of the pickup selection too, I just haven't figured out what to do with that either. Of course, to keep it clean looking, I'll do something along the lines of what I've got now for extra switches:

[rickenbrother]

Thanks for chiming in Joey! So, which position, exactly were you thinking about?

Adding the third pickup between your now existing treble bridge pickup and the bridge. Your existing bridge pickup would become the punch pickup, the added pickup becoming the bridge pickup.

4 pickups sounds like a cool idea, but I think might be a bit much, however it's your Cii.

[jps]

Given a three pickup bass, I would go with the near bridge position, also.

[rickaddict]

Unlike Jeff, I do like the tone of the bridge pickup mixed in equally with the neck pickup on my 4005WB. By itself, the bridge PU with the tone rolled about 70% down I get a nice burbly tone that is a bit bass shy so adding a bit of the neck PU helps there. I have no cap in-line with the bridge PU; does yours have the cap, Jeff?

I bypassed the cap on mine. I'm playing it right now, and I gotta say...I really wonder what the 4005 would have sounded like if it had the bridge pickup in the 4001 location. Or maybe even in the 4002 neck pickup location. I thought about putting a middle pickup on mine in the 4001 bridge spot (it actually looked pretty darned cool like that when I placed one there too!), but I'll probably just leave it alone.

[rickenbrother]

If my my 4004Cii BBR was not a COY instrument, it would have gotten the third HB1 long ago. Dane Wilder thinks I should go ahead and do it anyway!
This is close to what it would look like if it did get the third pickup. The main difference from the picture is that it would have 3 stacked pots for volume and tone.

[johnallg]

This is a very interesting thread. I vote for the near bridge position, given your bass and the desire for 3 pickups. Can you use double sided tape and stick an HB1 (I forget how tall they are) at different places to hear the differences? Or at worst hold it over the strings and see how it changes when you move it around on top of the strings?