The wood of john's first rickenbacker

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:44 pm

This really is a question for John Hall, but a bit of history may be in order here:

Brazilian Rosewood (Dalbergia Negra) was native to central eastern Brasil, from Rio north to Salvador, Bahia (two great party towns, incidentally!). Most of its native habitat has been replaced by farmland, and as long ago as the 1920s, it was foreseen that the species was nearing extinction. It's estimated that only 5% of its original cover is left, and in 1992 the CITES treaty made it illegal to trade, except for previously-logged stock, which was censused and registered by the CETI administration. They're now actually digging up the stumps of previously-cut trees in order to fill some demand legally, but recently a sizeable trade in illegal wood has been noted in Europe. Current prices of legal wood are exceeding $100.00 per board foot!

In 2002, I purchased about 50 board feet in Brasil in roughcut form, not knowing what it was, for US$38 or $40. It was legal, I might add. You can still find it there in lumberyards. I used it to build some moveable screens for my design studio there. They brought it from the lumberyard to my studio--10 miles cross-town--on a donkey cart. The delivery charge was US$3.80. Once I ripped it on my table saw, I realized what I had.

But for export? Not a chance anymore.

Scastles · Post by **Scastles** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:55 pm

Paul, as I understand it a majority of what is used now is African rosewood, and before it was from SE Asia. Is this right, wrong or somewhere in between?

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:19 pm

I don't believe the majority of rosewood used now is African Rosewood (which by the way is not a rosewood at all, but merely vaguely similar in coloring and grain, and known commonly as bubinga!), but Indian Rosewood, which is widely cultivated and not endangered. Indian Rosewood is a true rosewood, being of the Dalbergia species--namely, Dalbergia Sissoon. Bubinga is a Pterocarpus (Erinaceus). Guiboutria Tessmannii is sometimes called bubinga, too. Both are available on the open market. Bubinga is comparable in price to maple, as long as you don't mind a very straight grain (figured bubinga is very rare due to the consistent climate in which the trees grow their best).

Indian Rosewood is pretty pricey, at about twice the price of bubinga.

patrickkelly · Post by **patrickkelly** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:08 am

Wow. Lennon's '58 has a replaced back? Zoinks!

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:13 am

Various accounts have John's '58 either run over or stepped upon, which required replacement of the back in the early days.

Going by some of the studio photos I've seen with this guitar lying on the floor, I'd tend to believe the latter version.

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:03 am

JH: Nothing would surprise me, given how Lennon treated his guitars--lots of miles on the 325s alone. The 325/12 is still in pretty good shape, I spent about an hour looking at it last August at the RRHOF.

I suppose John's RM1996 that Ringo ended up with should still be pretty well preserved..

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:11 pm

Sure looked like the original thin back on John's '58 325 when I saw it in Japan.

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:22 pm

We already had that conversation, Larry, and this is further proof that you're still wrong!

karl_teten · Post by **karl_teten** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:14 pm

Hello everyone. I thought I would 'shake off some fleas' and drop in.

I'm with Larry on this subject. The back of V81 looks identical to all the other ply backs I have seen on 325's of that period.

If V81 had been stepped on and broken, that would have been the end of that guitar.

Brian Epstein purchased two brand new imported Gibsons for the Beatles at that time. If Lennon's guitar was smashed, he would have received a new guitar IMO.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:17 pm

There are informed opinions and then there are uninformed ones...

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:25 pm

Hi Karl, welcome to the Forum.

This should make for an interesting discussion, no doubt---

What's interesting is that no accounts (in print, at least) exist about Lennon's guitar getting a new back put on it...IF it has had a new back, what were the circumstances as to why it needed one? This is something we'll probably never know.
Stepped on or smashed may be a little harsh in this case, but a lesser act that caused a bad split?

Despite of what's been said, a 58 325 hasn't surfaced yet that has a solid wood back; I'm not denying anything, it's just the ones we know of have plywood backs, and (with the exception of Lennons) two knob controls.(Jamie's doesn't count...)

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:42 pm

I'm not buying your theory John! I agree with Karl that if the guitar had been busted it would have been the end of V81. I know Ron DeMarino and have discussed with him the restoration of V81 several times. No matter what some people say about him, he is a great guy and a very good luthier. I'm sure he would have noticed a replaced back.

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:28 pm

No theories here- just repeating information that's been circulating for decades. The story goes on to say the damage was early on in Germany and also that the work was performed there.

Where did I first hear this story? Well, my dad of course, who said John had told him this.

roadrunners · Post by **roadrunners** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:48 am

wow, but how do we know it wasnt just repaired rather then completley replaced>?

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:32 am

That's kinda the point- none of us really knows anything about these guitars on a first hand basis so theories and speculation are just that- theories and speculation. To hear all the religious subscriptions to one universal truth, you'd think this was the Shroud of Turin.