Flatwound vs. Roundwound

[anonymous]

One more stupid question from that silly Frenchy guy

When I was a young and nice guy (that means a VERY long time ago , I once experienced flatwound strings on my 4001. I liked the touch, though the tone was much smoother.

However, as I wish, rather shortly, to buy a used 4001 or 4003 as a backup bass, I'd like to know, on the basis of identical gauge, if the tension is higher on roundwound or on flatwound strings. What I have in my mind is having my main bass mounted with roundwounds, and the backup one mounted with flatwounds.

Can anyone be of any help please ?

Thanks in advance.

[anonymous]

The tension on bass strings is fairly even from brand to brand .
I suggest you go to the GHS site or the D'Addario site ...they post the tension for their strings.

Roto Sound is the same tension as these.
LaBella similar , Dean Markley also similar .

I can not answer anything about European strings other than what I said about Roto's .

If we go back to the 1950's when Leo Fender pioneered the electric bass ,there was no standard for bass strings , and all makers of electric basses ... had to 'beg' string makers to get these strings.
The German makers of Rick strings were rooted in violin strings , those strings are really light in tension .As Rick stayed with those strings (and it made for a classic sound) the rod system that Fender used was patented by Gibson .I imagine that Fender paid a fee to use it .
This patent has long since run out and most makers use a variation on it .The new Ricks since 1984 use it.
This system allows the useage of any brand and gauge of string .
The old rods do work , but they do not operate like the 'Gibson' rod.This is where the source of frustrations come from .

Your average guitarist/bassist is used to dealing with the 'Gibson' rod ...not the Rick rod.

A side note .........The Rick rod was also /is also used by ;
Harmony,
Jackson,
Warmoth,
Charvel,
Guild,
Alembic,
And many others.They just changed the dimensions of the stock and the material .Those rods do not have the heartache of the vintage Rick system.
They operate just like the 'Gibson' rods .

With the new 4003 basses (since 1984 ) you will find the rods to be no issue .The fact that you got a 'bum' neck makes me wonder about the person adjusting it .It may just need a change of washers on the rods and a drop of oil .....this takes care of many 'defective' rods.

As to what do you want to use for strings...
I do not know what you have available in France .
Try something that is compression wound or half round , these are smoother to the touch and a little darker to the ear.ALL Round wound have that "Roto sound" type of sound.Think ...Yes or The Who.

[anonymous]

Mark,

I know you weren't talking about the european brands in your last post, but I just wanted to know how Pyramid flats relate to being lighter or heavier than the gauge on the package.

I believe it says on the Pyramid site that their strings are "hand made for precision", but I've also read on this board that that policy can lead to inconsistent string gauges.

[anonymous]

Mark - Is there a specific tension range that the neck of older late 60's to early 70's 4001 necks can easily handle without any concern of damaging the rod system or popping the fretboard?
Cheers,

[anonymous]

Popping the fretboard is a 50/50 chance with any type of string .
It is more often the person adjusting the neck , rather than the string that causes this .

I see more repair people just take a rod wrench and tighten the nuts until the fretboard pops .They still have not straightened the neck and get frustrated.They have no idea that you will more than likely have to pull the rods out , loosen the strings,bend the rods , reinstall the rods with an arch bent into the neck , then tighten the nuts up to hold that arch ...then reinstall the strings and tune it ....and here is where it is backwards from EVERYONE ELSE !
You loosen the rods to achieve the straightness that you want! No one else does that .

That is why the confusion.This system was designed in a time when there was NO standard .
It took a long time for this to finally go away and an industry standard set of rods replace this old way .

You CAN make the old way work , you just have to appoach it differently.
I also believe that if an epoxy resin glue had been used to adhere the fretboards on all these old neck NONE of them would pop .
This is debatable , and I do not have any shear strength info in front of me ....But I use epoxy to glue Bass fretboards on basses that I make .Why? I remember an article that was on Alembic from the early 1970's and either Rick Turner or Ron Wickersham commented on this very issue and how they NEVER wanted to have this happen to their instruments. I have never seen an Alembic pop it's fretboard and they use a variation on the Rick rod of old .
I will say that if you want to avoid any chance of popping .....don't use a string that is heavier than a set that is .105 to .050 that will be the largest you could install with out fear .This does not give you tension measurements , but that is a good generalization of safe range.

The way that PYRAMID strings are made ......that line is pure marketing and really says nothing at all ....it is a " warm fire with a kitten in your lap" type of statement.
If the materials in strings are all pulled through a die and are coming from one source and the whole string making industry uses the same wire source, and the round wound strings are wrapped using a CNC lathe ...this is THE most acurate method of string making there is .

Flat wounds are basicly a round wound with an outer wrap of flat material over them.
If the whole thing is done with the human eye , then those peoples doing the making had better have great eyesight and have an attention span that has their eyes locked on what they are doing .
The thing about CNC strings is their consistancy in setting intonation ......it rarely varies .

[toneman]

Mark; Just thought you'd like the know that Pyramid draws their own flatwire and does not buy any wire from the same scoures that U.S. string makers get them from. All of Pyramid's materials come from either Germany or Central Europe musical wire suppliers. Cores are a small diameter German steel with (on pure nickle flatwound guitar and bass sets) a layer of pure nickle round wire followed by a wrap of pure nickle flatwire. All of Pyramid's plain strings for guitar are German steel that's silver plated. German steel is more flexible than the normal "Swedish Steel" that nearly everyone in this country uses.
It also bears mentioning that most European string makers use a small core and large wrap wire where as U.S. string makers use a large (and very stiff) core wire and small wrap wire.
U.S. string makers use to use the smaller wire cores until the early seventies when they figured out that could make more money and sell more strings by using a large core/small wrap. The wrap wire is usually the most expensive part of the string.
Personally, until the U.S. string manufactures start using the older methods and wire specs again to make a quality (instead of quantity) string, I'll stick with Pyramid's.
BTW, I'm just specfically speaking of guitar and bass strings. Pyramid offers strings for over 150+ instruments. On an odd note, I even found Pyramid Strings in a music shop in Calcutta, India last year when we were there on tour...

[johnhall]

Just for balance, I think we should mention the Thomastik-Infeld strings which benefit from the same European sources and to my taste make an even easier string to play, and more importantly, that sounds great.

[ricnvolved]

Pyramid and Thomastik-Infeld strings certainly are more expensive but, at least in this instance, I strongly feel you get what you pay for. In using these 2 namebrands for the past few years I've been able to discover for myself the high quality that goes into them. And it's quietly comforting to read Don Butler's and John Hall's endorsement in their respective posts.

[sir_andrew_of_left_coast]

Resurrecting a year-old thread?

[grsnovi]

OK, so while we're digging through history here, I looked at the strings that I put on the 370/12 last September (or whenever I put the 12 saddle on it) and they look terrible - like I need to change 'em. Between the bridge and the tail, all tarnished looking, etc...

They are stock RIC strings.

So, I got to thinking: what about Elixir? I know they make an electric string but after looking, they don't do an electric 12 set. What would it take to put a set together?

Looks like 2 sets of 9's and a set of mediums. But even then the guages wouldn't really match anything, and I'd probably only end up with one wound octave string - which sorta defeats the purpose of going with a coated string.

I have never tried Elixir's electric strings. I really like what they did for my acoustic six string, but I wasn't that impressed with their acoustic 12 string set.

Anyone have any thoughts on this idea?

[ricnvolved]

Andrew-- Some things are worth resurrecting. Ironic you should ask that right after Easter Weekend.

Gary-- I'm personally not a fan of Elixirs. I'm only partially familiar with their acoustic guitar strings, and not at all with the others. These seem to be an "either/or" brand: either you like 'em or you don't. One guitar player I play with on a regular basis really likes Elixir acoustic strings. Another guy I used to play with absolutely hates them. Much is made of the protective coating and the longevity this provides, but almost nothing is ever mentioned about just which manufacturer actually MAKES the string itself. I've heard rumor from a couple of sources that it's S.I.T., but I've yet to substantiate that.

[sir_andrew_of_left_coast]

You caught me, Jeffery. Yes, intentional choice of words.

But, also, the intended reader of Toneman's post isn't around here anymore... evidently.

CHORDially...

[ricnvolved]

Andrew-- Yes, that would appear to be the case. But Don the Toneman revealed some highly interesting information concerning the manufacture of Pyramid strings versus U.S. made strings. Don's & Mr. Hall's posts serve to bolster my preference for Pyramid and T-I. Thus it is sometimes worthwhile to "resurrect" a year old thread.

[admin]

Anrew: I find myself posting questions relating to a 40 year old thread (The Beatles) and a 70 year old thread (Rickenbackers) on a regular basis.

Jeffrey: Elixirs are a D'Addario string before coating. SIT strings are nice strings and one of the best secrets out there.

[johnhall]

SIT's and D'Addario's are very fine strings, excellent diameter uniformity up and down the length of the string and totally consistent from string to string. That's the beauty of automation in string making.

It seems to be overlooked that Elixir strings come in two varieties, Polyweb and Nanoweb. I believe the Polyweb was first out but in any case that's the thicker coating that not everyone appreciates. The thin Nanoweb is actually quite hard to notice on the string while providing the same benefit. W.L. Gore, the makers of Elixir (yes, it IS Goretex on the strings) has done quite a good job of promoting their product, providing significant "incentives" to manufacturers to equip new guitars with their product.