6 saddle bridge or 12 saddle, which works for you?

johnashfield · Post by **johnashfield** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 3:57 pm

OK, who here has a 12 string with a 6 saddle bridge that properly intonates and plays in tune up and down the neck.

Who here has had to have a luthier put the 12 saddle bridge on, sometimes involving moving the baseplate, and had other issues arise, such as the pickups being off center, etc?

I really want to know.

johnashfield · Post by **johnashfield** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 4:10 pm

Oh, just to stand up and be counted, I had to have a 12 saddle bridge put on as the guitar (with the 6 saddle bridge) would not intonate, even with Rickenbacker strings (I know, amazing huh). Of course putting the 12 saddle bridge on involved more drama than should be neccesary with a quality instrument. Yes the pickups are off center.

Also, does anyone buy Rickenbacker's arguement that a properly intonated 12 string sounds bad? And that a out of tune badly intonated guitar sounds better?

profjeff · Post by **profjeff** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 7:17 pm

Hello John:

I just put a 12 saddle bridge on my Rick 360/12 about two weeks ago. It seemed to fit just fine on the baseplate. I ground down the apexes of the saddles and rounded them with a mini Dremel tool and some emery paper. I hate sharp edges on my bridge because I use my right palm to damp the strings. Then I used a Dremel mini cut off wheel to score the grooves for the strings, eventually finishing them off with a small file and some emery paper.

I was able to line up the strings with the pickups pretty well. The high and low E strings are a bit too far inward over the bridge pickup, but they line up perfectly with the neck pickup. I cannot remember how they aligned when I had the 6 saddle bridge on. Overall, everything works very well and the guitar intonates perfectly.

I did cut the spring on the low E string in half because the bridge piece needed to be pretty close to the flanged edge. Also, the spring on my octave G string was not nearly long enough, so I salvaged a longer one from my old bridge. So far so good. It took a couple of days and two different sets of strings before I had everything set up the way I like. I ended up putting a set of Pyramid flatwounds on the guitar and it feels and sounds great.

I will post an image of my bridge on my website this weekend.

--jeff

http://home.attbi.com/~drjeffreyb

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Sat Mar 16, 2002 5:22 am

I see on the original bridge that your saddles are jammed against the back edge of the chassis , did you leave the plate as is , and did the 12 saddle bridge need modifing to get the saddles alll the way back ? or did you move the plate ?

jimd · Post by **jimd** » Sat Mar 16, 2002 6:31 am

I installed the 12 saddle. I relocated the base plate with forum posts and photos Mark sent. No problem with saddle adjustment.

The string alignment across the pickups bothered me. I moved the bridge pu about 1/8" down, the grommet covers the old screw hole. I also replaced the trapeze with the 12 hole replacement offered by the Dr.
Plays great and in tune.

profjeff · Post by **profjeff** » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:30 pm

The plate on my guitar is in its original location. Only the low E string saddle is close to the chassis. As I said, I cut the spring in half. I tried removing the spring altogether, but I noticed an irritating vibration on the low E.

Here's a link to a photo of the 12 string bridge taken with a set of roundwounds.

http://www.coe.unco.edu/jeffbauer/bridge.jpg

I recently installed flatwounds...the saddles have been adjusted accordingly. As I said, no major problems so far. This guitar gets alot of playing time. I have found that it goes great with the acoustic guitar and the rest of the instruments in our praise band at church. I prefer my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe (w/Celestion V-30) with this guitar onstage. This rig gives the Rick 12 more bottom end and a nice shimmery top.

http://home.attbi.com/~drjeffreyb

rickplayer · Post by **rickplayer** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:57 am

/image{}

rickplayer · Post by **rickplayer** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:59 am

/image{bridge}

rickplayer · Post by **rickplayer** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:00 am

OK,
I am a dork. I will try again.

Jon

scott_s · Post by **scott_s** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:05 am

Hmm... when has Rickenbacker stated that? In my experience, every guitar that has been intonated well has sounded much more pleasing to the ear, even if the 'tone' isn't quite the same.

justonwo · Post by **justonwo** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:43 pm

Scott,

Do a search for the thread titled "why we don't just move the bridge" and look at John Hall's post on July 12 at 12:31.

"A guitar is really a huge bunch of compromises because everything affects everything else and certain simplifications (i.e. straight frets that serve all six strings) make any guitar quite imperfect. Different people hear these imperfections in very individual fashion too, so what I prefer may not suit you at all. As an example, an absolutely perfectly intoned 12 stringer is one of the most unattractive sounds you'll ever hear as some of the normal imperfections are what provide the distinctive character." -John Hall

johnashfield · Post by **johnashfield** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 1:39 pm

Tommy from RIC actually told me that the official line there is that "A perfectly in tune 12 string would sound bad"

Of course RIC should have that statement on the website and in the catalog by their 12 string guitars. "These instruments play out of tune and you won't be able to tune them without spending more money on a new bridge and doing a lot of work, preferably by a luthier." That would be honest. Of course, who would still buy them then?

John Hall's statement is also strange because yes, a guitar is a bunch of compromises with the tuning, but so is a piano, or any other tempered instrument. No one would ever say an out of tune piano sounds better. Or that bands and orchestras sound better out of tune. Could you imagine a company like Steinway saying, our pianos sound better out of tune? Or actually the president or owner of Steinway saying something like that?

Yes, everyone hears these imperfections slightly differently, but out of tune octaves sound horrible!

Compromises in tuning came about so one could play in different keys using the same instrument.

A perfectly intoned 12 string, sounds....IN TUNE!

12 strings with bad intonation sound especially bad with other guitars, and keyboards, and singers.

Even with the 12 saddle bridge, the guitars arte not perfectly intonated. Nothing could be really. But come on.

The fact that John Hall actually says in public that out of tune guitars sound better is, well I don't know, but isn't that kinda strange? Or is it an excuse?

In any event I love my guitar now.

rickplayer · Post by **rickplayer** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 6:30 am

I am having problems getting my resolution and file size right. I will try again to post.

rickplayer · Post by **rickplayer** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 6:36 am

Now the final 12 saddle. Notice the room for intonation on the low strings. The high pairs are identical so the seperate saddles are almost redundant.

rickplayer · Post by **rickplayer** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 6:41 am

Oops! Again?