12 string electric vs. 12 string acoustic

rickplayer · Post by **rickplayer** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 6:29 am

Mark,
In the "General" catagory we are discussing the bridge placement and 6 vs 12 saddle bridges. Why don't acoustics require seperate adjustments on their saddles? I am adamant on the need for individual saddles on my RIC electric 12, but am stumped on the acoustic issue. Please tell all!

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 11:04 am

On an electric guitar , we expect to have adjustment for all strings.
The last hold outs are Fenders Vintage Tele ( it does have a tone difference , but the intonation is NOT possible with any type or brand of string. To be any better than three strings correct , you must have a clever fellow do some magic).

The other is Rickenbacker 12 strings (in general)

I'll bet that most of them come with the six saddle bridge .

As far as why don't acoustics have a mechanical device to intonate ? Easy ....a good/excellant case in point is the late 1960's Gibson acoustics .Many of these guitars were fitted STOCK from the Kalamzoo factory with modified 'Tun-O-Matic' bridges.
The sound?..............LAME

The metal device caused a muting of the sound and made the treble increase and lose a lot of the 'acoustic' tone .
However some wonderful recordings were made using these guitars ...analog technology wins here in helping it to sound good.

Case in point ..."Here Come's the Sun" Beatles-Abbey Road LP/CD
Same guitar ...."For You Blue" Beatles -Let it Be

I have changed many of these guitars to a standard saddle type bridge (with the saddle compensated ...this is NOT a molded pre made type)

As to why has no one commercially made available a compensated 12 string acoustic saddle?

1- different width of string spacings at the saddle/pins
2-How do you tune a 12 string ...to pitch ? down to a D? open tuning? etc
3-The set up is critical on intonation and never more obvious than on a 12 string.If the neck needs to be reset , or the frets are in poor shape or any other setup issue is out of whack ....they must ALL be taken care of before this couls even be thought of .
4- many older 12 strings were unfortunately not very well designed.They were made just to sell to a small market .Many Gibson 12 strings are just aweful. There are some Martin 12 strings ...that just plain have bridges that need to be removed and then a new one made so that the saddle can be properly located.
I will not go through all the makers and the problems of them ...but I will state that for the most part ...the 12 string is NOT a very well thought out guitar.Not like the six strings are .
5-the radius of fretboard , every one seems to differ as to what radius they should be .
The common versions; 10" 12" 15" and 16"

Now if a maker of saddle was to spend the money to make a molding set up ....which radius , which spacing, and which string method should be used?
Each company would need to have their own molds .
The cost to do this .... in the thousands of dollars !
How many acoustic 12 strings are made by one manufacturer per year?

The answer .........it is NOT economically worth it to do this for anyone .The cost is too high.
I have looked into doing this .There is NO standardization between the makers and with that many variables ....I stopped going forward with the concept.
Also the cost of patenting the product , and the upkeep on it is rediculous.

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 11:09 am

By the way ...I make these as one offs .

I make about one per month .I have a process and does it make a diffence?

YES!!!!! a 12 string sound WONDERFUL in tune!

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 11:33 am

I know this can be done ....AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 11:43 am

Third times the charm they say !

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 11:45 am

$%^@^^&*()*&#$%@^$%@$

sorry

sir_andrew_of_left_coast · Thu Mar 21, 2002 11:46 am

But "they" weren't talking about posting images.

Peter... help the kind gentleman out, will ya!

rickplayer · Post by **rickplayer** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 11:50 am

Here is the image
mark was posting.

rickplayer · Post by **rickplayer** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 11:54 am

I will try to increase resolution

sir_andrew_of_left_coast · Thu Mar 21, 2002 11:56 am

NOW we're talkin'!!!

I can now see why a lack of "standardization" makes this sort of bridge/saddle a one-off sort of thing.

Nice work, Mark! ...and you, too, Jon!

rickplayer · Post by **rickplayer** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 12:04 pm

Now that we see your compensated bridge, I want to ask, why is it not as obvious on an acoustic as it is on an electric? If I pick up any brand acoustic 12 and tune it, it basically sounds good. I can strum it, capo it, etc.. When I play a stock six saddle RIC 12 electric, it does not sound like this. Or at least is not as obvious.

carr · Post by **carr** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 12:27 pm

I thinkI must be pitch deaf or extremely lucky.

I bought a secondhand..as new ....360/12 and it sounds perfect to me...The only problem I seem to have is the Low E seems to slip occasionally .. I suspect that either the string is not wound on correctly or my propensity for lying the guitar down on the spare bed while I go get a coffee is sufficient to move the tuner a little.. They are very soft in their operation. Whatever.... a tiny adjustment and I'm back in business..

Illbe restringing soon.. I guess that will bring any problems to the surface

John

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 12:34 pm

It is all what your ear perceives.

When I worked in retail music stores years ago , we dealt with Yamaha as a source for decent student grade acoustics.
We would order in a dozen 12 string acoustics at a time.
I would take three of them and on one I would change the stringing to the 'Rick' style (octave on the down side) .
One I would set up really nice standard stringing.
And th elast one would get one of these setups WITH acompensated saddle.
That guitar would have an additional charge added to the tag .
One of those three would always be the first to sell and the one that had the compensated saddle would sell that service to the rest of the guitars .
I made one of these per week for 10 years .I have a reputation for it .I also understand the math involved and I know of no one else in the greater Seattle area that performs this service.I do know that I am not alone in doing this however.

The ear is a funny thing ....If you could play two acoustics , one with and the same brand/model without one ...you would then hear it.

This translates to six strings as well .

Many players have acoustics that NEVEr have anything done about the intonation ...they say it is okay and does not matter.

"If you make it ...they will come."

I remind myself of something that Leo Fender once said to me ...."The public MUST be listened to , they have the want , I just make what they want and need to keep my ear tuned to them (the public) they can be fickle but you must listen to them ." .
Great words , thanks Leo .

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 12:46 pm

Personally ....I think it is as obvious .

I also think that if you play a D in first position , then play an E in first position that the out of tune factor is incredible noticable.
That is on an acoustic.
Do the same on a three saddle Telecaster , same deal ...out of tune.
Now if the same is played on a Strat , with the six saddle bridge and all guitars have new strings and have been set up and intonated , the Strat is best by far.
I am using a Strat here , purely as an illustration.

I do know the more that I play , the more this is noticable.Players that just sit around the house and play for their own enjoyment and don't gig , do not necessarily have the want or ear for this .
I know that starting out as a young player , in the late 1960's I thought that my Telecaster was fine.But ..as time went on and my experiences grew , I noticed this out of tune factor.
I sold the guitar , as I felt I had "a Bad one".
So I bought another Tele....same deal and it varied from string set to set .I sold it .
I bought a Strat ....got locked into Ernie Ball Regular slinkies , got my bridge strobed ...WOW!!!! what a difference.
I did not like the Strat ....sold it .
Bought another Tele as I liked th esound and look .
PROBLEMS!!!!
Went to work for Electro String Corp in Calif , making Ricks ......bought my first strobe tuner after a conversation with Roger McGuinn at the Troubador one night after a gig.He asked me lots of questions as did I .We talked guitars for quite a while .

Then he asked about intonation on his 12 string and on acoustics.....that is the moment that started this thing in me.A quest if you will.

Thanks Roger .

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 4:23 pm

If you think your guitar is correct , try this .

Next time you string it , only install the high E's the B's and the octaves.

Tune it .....now you have discovered Nashville tuning also know as High strung tuning .

Now ........play chords all over the neck ...in tune? probably flat .

at least the octaves.
Now look at my compesated saddle , notice how the octaves are in front of their standard strings?
The high E and B are basicly identical in length .

You need a 1/4" wide saddle to do this job .

Can you imagine taking a six string electric , and setting your saddles in a straight line?

NO ........Then think about the fact that your octaves are ,while not as loud as the standard string , they too should be given the benefit of being in tune.
Now this is NOT perfect ....but a lot better than either a straight line , or a six saddle bridge .