6 saddle bridge or 12 saddle, which works for you?
Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4
Juston: Your points are understood. On some instruments it may be necessary to move the bridge and on others it may not. Provided proper intonation is achieved it would seem that either option is acceptable.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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johnashfield
- Veteran RRF member
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- Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 8:57 pm
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Thank you Justin!
You are so right in saying that so many people have posted about the same problem with the 12 strings again and again.
As far as George Harrison or Roger McGuinn putting up with intonation issues...
Well, perhaps they used flatwound strings, or perhaps they just got lucky.
But just because people in the 60's had to put up with poor intonation doesn't mean that we should have to put up with that now. What kind of arguement is that?
It just seems that as beautiful as Rickenbackers are, they have a design flaw. There is nothing wrong in admitting this. I mean, how hard is it to put the bridge on a little bit further back?
As far as the "you say po-tay-toe..." thing...
I don't see how a guitar that only plays out of tune is a personal preference. RM detunes his high E and B pairs. OK, he CHOOSES to do that. Maybe someone would choose to have the octaves out of tune, cool, whatever. BUT having them in tune should be a choice as well.
Of course there are a lot of variables in regards to tuning, and intonation. But my guitar and seemingly many others have had the same issue.
In response to the point made about acoustics not having a 12 saddle bridge...
I have no idea why they work. A pal of mine has a Martin 12 string and it played fine, and sounded in tune. I was able to play open and fretted chords. On my new RIC with the 6 saddle, Any chord using the E and A octave pairs sounded horribly out of tune. Unless I tuned so it sounded good when fretted but then you couldn't play the strings open. So much for just about any REM song!
Some people may indeed like their rics playing out of tune. Obviously the people in Santa Ana do.
Of course, a really bad thing has happened. With all of this drama going on involving my 12 string, (it's out of alignment pickups, bridge needing to be moved, etc.), I have had 4 different people tell me that they were thinking of buying a RIC, now tell me they wouldn't.
You are so right in saying that so many people have posted about the same problem with the 12 strings again and again.
As far as George Harrison or Roger McGuinn putting up with intonation issues...
Well, perhaps they used flatwound strings, or perhaps they just got lucky.
But just because people in the 60's had to put up with poor intonation doesn't mean that we should have to put up with that now. What kind of arguement is that?
It just seems that as beautiful as Rickenbackers are, they have a design flaw. There is nothing wrong in admitting this. I mean, how hard is it to put the bridge on a little bit further back?
As far as the "you say po-tay-toe..." thing...
I don't see how a guitar that only plays out of tune is a personal preference. RM detunes his high E and B pairs. OK, he CHOOSES to do that. Maybe someone would choose to have the octaves out of tune, cool, whatever. BUT having them in tune should be a choice as well.
Of course there are a lot of variables in regards to tuning, and intonation. But my guitar and seemingly many others have had the same issue.
In response to the point made about acoustics not having a 12 saddle bridge...
I have no idea why they work. A pal of mine has a Martin 12 string and it played fine, and sounded in tune. I was able to play open and fretted chords. On my new RIC with the 6 saddle, Any chord using the E and A octave pairs sounded horribly out of tune. Unless I tuned so it sounded good when fretted but then you couldn't play the strings open. So much for just about any REM song!
Some people may indeed like their rics playing out of tune. Obviously the people in Santa Ana do.
Of course, a really bad thing has happened. With all of this drama going on involving my 12 string, (it's out of alignment pickups, bridge needing to be moved, etc.), I have had 4 different people tell me that they were thinking of buying a RIC, now tell me they wouldn't.
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ted_williams
- Veteran RRF member
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2001 12:58 pm
John Ashfield says that Rickenbackers "have a design flaw" with regards to their bridge placement. I would argue that it's an implementation flaw, as the overall design is solid. I agree that Rick's standard bridge placement needs to sneak a little away from the nut. Someone also mentioned pickup placement, which, in my experience, seems somewhat arbitrary. Again, an implementation flaw - easily fixed. Inexcusable? Possibly. Part of the charm of a hand-made instrument? Definitely! There are few industries where two examples of the same make and model can vary so widely.
As for the 6- versus 12-saddle debate, I'm sure there are people whose styles will permit the use of the 6-saddle, but I gotta have the 12-saddle or my stuff won't work.
As for the 6- versus 12-saddle debate, I'm sure there are people whose styles will permit the use of the 6-saddle, but I gotta have the 12-saddle or my stuff won't work.
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johnashfield
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- Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 8:57 pm
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I stand corrected Ted. An implementation flaw is a better explanation for the problems I have had.
I totally agree with everything you said, but I for one don't find this particular implementation flaw "charming".
Oh well, I think it is safe to assume, that once having the guitar changed or fixed or something, those of us who have had problems with them like them a whole lot right?
I totally agree with everything you said, but I for one don't find this particular implementation flaw "charming".
Oh well, I think it is safe to assume, that once having the guitar changed or fixed or something, those of us who have had problems with them like them a whole lot right?
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stanley
The devil's advocate:
OK, so now I've had the 360-12 CW for 5 days and the initial rush is wearing out. Last nite I could tell the guitar needed intonation. Maybe the guitar is changing due to different conditions in the house. I had similar experiences with other new guitars. The high E and B are off----- much worse than the other strings. I will try to intonate tonite. BTW, I was able to play stuff like "What you're Doing" by the Beatles and it sounded fine, however this is mostly open strings. I may end up doing all those mods (12-saddle and nut modification) after all. Does any one know any Rick luthiers in the DC, Va, Md metro area? Is this a job that can be done by a non-Rick specialist? I guess it depends on how good the guy is.
OK, so now I've had the 360-12 CW for 5 days and the initial rush is wearing out. Last nite I could tell the guitar needed intonation. Maybe the guitar is changing due to different conditions in the house. I had similar experiences with other new guitars. The high E and B are off----- much worse than the other strings. I will try to intonate tonite. BTW, I was able to play stuff like "What you're Doing" by the Beatles and it sounded fine, however this is mostly open strings. I may end up doing all those mods (12-saddle and nut modification) after all. Does any one know any Rick luthiers in the DC, Va, Md metro area? Is this a job that can be done by a non-Rick specialist? I guess it depends on how good the guy is.
Julio: When I got my CW (last Sept.) it was okay for a while, then when we started changing seasons the neck was going out a little--I needed to make a truss-rod adjustment. The guitar has been fine since. When I first got it I did drop the action a little lower than the factory setup(my own preference). New guitars may move a bit one way or the other...the older it gets the less you will have to mess with the rods...
I got my 360/12 secondhand (actually third hand), and the original owner (not the guy I bought it from) had the 12-saddle bridge and new nut (with the two strings in each pair slightly closer together) installed. MAN OH MAN am I glad it came that way! I always knew the intonation (which I haven't touched since buying the guitar a year ago) was good, but I checked it with a tuner last night and only two of the high-octave strings were off (both by a tiny bit - just a couple cents at the 12th fret - barre chords played up there still sound fine to my ears). And the saddles in each pair definitely aren't at the same position, so it would not be intoned correctly with only a six-saddle bridge. Maybe not every person or every 12-string Ric needs a 12-saddle bridge, but I know that I do and mine does.
My basses are Rickenbackers. My synthesizers and recording gear are analog.
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stanley
The Devil's advocate:
I tried to do the intonation in my new CW and I could not quite get it to work in the A and low E string pairs. In the other strings I somehow got it to work by tuning one of the pairs slightly flat within the "in tune" range. Sort of like looking at a tuner with two arrows and favoring the left arrow when it is almost in the mid point of the arrows. I did not have any luck with the low E pair. I also messed around with the bridge height and could not make it work. I can play songs, but I know quite well there are some strings that I can not play in certain locations of the neck. In addition, I may have to shorten the springs to be able to move the saddles back. In some instances the spring is squashed as much as possible and I barely got it to work. I also found out that one can easily become obsessed about the whole thing and the ear gets to a point where it starts to hear intonation problems all over the place even when the guitar tuner tells otherwise. In any event, I still want to record a couple of songs before I do something about it.
I tried to do the intonation in my new CW and I could not quite get it to work in the A and low E string pairs. In the other strings I somehow got it to work by tuning one of the pairs slightly flat within the "in tune" range. Sort of like looking at a tuner with two arrows and favoring the left arrow when it is almost in the mid point of the arrows. I did not have any luck with the low E pair. I also messed around with the bridge height and could not make it work. I can play songs, but I know quite well there are some strings that I can not play in certain locations of the neck. In addition, I may have to shorten the springs to be able to move the saddles back. In some instances the spring is squashed as much as possible and I barely got it to work. I also found out that one can easily become obsessed about the whole thing and the ear gets to a point where it starts to hear intonation problems all over the place even when the guitar tuner tells otherwise. In any event, I still want to record a couple of songs before I do something about it.
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corey
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johnashfield
- Veteran RRF member
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- Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 8:57 pm
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Well, I got my 360/12 back from Precision Fretwork in San Francisco, and now my 12 string plays in tune. Just like a bunch of other people on this forum he had to recenter the bridge and move it back a bit. The saddles for the low E and A pairs are like a centimeter apart. No way a 6 saddle bridge could do that.
About the ear issue, I totally agree. 12 strings, even intonated, will have overtones and washes of sound all over the place, but...
Oh whatever! My guitar works now, and I found a luthier who will work on RICs on San Francisco!
About the ear issue, I totally agree. 12 strings, even intonated, will have overtones and washes of sound all over the place, but...
Oh whatever! My guitar works now, and I found a luthier who will work on RICs on San Francisco!
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corey
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stanley
Regarding my 360-12-CW:
OK, now I am getting a buzz or some sort of sympathetic chime when I play a C in the 3rd fret using the A string. I should not have messed around with this gutar. I also have to do upward picking to get the better sound of the string pairs. I can't use the low E string and the other ones are playable. So in the end I will need the 12 saddle bridge, reversed pairs and respacing at the nut so I can play an A chord in the 2nd fret. I may have to ship the guitar to one of the luthiers in this forum if I can't find anyone in my neck of the woods.
J
OK, now I am getting a buzz or some sort of sympathetic chime when I play a C in the 3rd fret using the A string. I should not have messed around with this gutar. I also have to do upward picking to get the better sound of the string pairs. I can't use the low E string and the other ones are playable. So in the end I will need the 12 saddle bridge, reversed pairs and respacing at the nut so I can play an A chord in the 2nd fret. I may have to ship the guitar to one of the luthiers in this forum if I can't find anyone in my neck of the woods.
J
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ted_williams
- Veteran RRF member
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2001 12:58 pm
I strongly recommend the 12-saddle bridge. The new nut spacing may also be extremely helpful for you. I've got relatively small fingers for someone six feet tall, so the stock spacing is comfortable for me. As for the pair-switching, you may want to consider leaving them as-is. I play them mostly with "standard" downstrokes, occasionally throwing in some upstroke picking as a sonic treat. It's become a weapon in my arsenal of "style".