Following on from discussions on the board in November 2001, I've now had the pickups in my 370/12RME1 unwound to match those in a 1964 Rose-Morris 1998, without any additional changes to the Roger McGuinn Model's circuitry. At the same time, I changed the standard RIC strings for Pyramid flatwounds. The worry was - would the circuit designed for a higher gain pickup deliver the same "correct" Byrds' sound ?
Using a (blackface) Fender Dual Showman AB763 with RCA 6L6s through a closed-back Dual Showman cabinet loaded with 2 15-inch JBL D130Fs and acoustic wadding, my happy finding is that the RM, with compressor on and the pickups unwound, delivers the most astonishingly-accurate Byrds' sound that I have achieved in 20 years of trying. The compressor now provides a slight boost to the signal with a noticeable but more subtle sustain.
A former home/studio instrument is now also an effective high-volume stage guitar. On the RM, there is no way of adjusting the level of compression between low and high-volume use, without either switching the compressor off, or opening the guitar up. After plugging straight into the house mixing desk on stage with the original pickup spec, I once had to wait a whole embarrassing second for the first note to come out. The unwound pickups now make this issue disappear.
In my view, you only need the level of compression originally designed into the RM if you want to reproduce the single version of "Why" and the instrumental version of "John Riley", both on the expanded "Fifth Dimension" CD. I can now achieve this sound quite easily, and more accurately, with my unwound pickups, the RM compressor and a Boss CS-3 on the floor.
My surprised conclusion is that as much guitar compression as possible does not make for a workable, accurate, general-purpose Byrds' sound and I would urge anyone thinking of saving the now-necessary $3.5k to check out a Fender Dual Showman rig first.
Retrofitting Scatterwounds to a 370/12RME1 (See Also Arc
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mark_telfer
- Veteran RRF member
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Retrofitting Scatterwounds to a 370/12RME1 (See Also Arc
"But the man has a 47-string guitar." (Grace Slick on Paul Kantner's attempt to tune his 366/12 during a Winterland show of October 31 1969).
Mark,
I'm curious about something...Didn't Roger McGuinn use a Dual Showman in the early days of The Byrds?? It seems that amplifier choice is taking precedence over the way the guitar is spec'd out...I tend to agree with you on what you are saying..I tend to get a better Byrd-like tone out of my 360/12CW than my Mapleglo 1968 370/12, which was modified to a three-knob configuration in 1970 or thereabouts, not far removed from a factory Byrd-wired 370/12. The scatter-wounds may have much to do with this, and the thin tops (1/8") that much of the CW Rickenbackers were made with.
I had a 370/12RME when they were new and IMO they were cool but something was lacking from the sound; ever since I've been a fan of outboard compression for Rick 12's...scatter-wounds too.
I'm curious about something...Didn't Roger McGuinn use a Dual Showman in the early days of The Byrds?? It seems that amplifier choice is taking precedence over the way the guitar is spec'd out...I tend to agree with you on what you are saying..I tend to get a better Byrd-like tone out of my 360/12CW than my Mapleglo 1968 370/12, which was modified to a three-knob configuration in 1970 or thereabouts, not far removed from a factory Byrd-wired 370/12. The scatter-wounds may have much to do with this, and the thin tops (1/8") that much of the CW Rickenbackers were made with.
I had a 370/12RME when they were new and IMO they were cool but something was lacking from the sound; ever since I've been a fan of outboard compression for Rick 12's...scatter-wounds too.
This is more a question for Don Adamek or Tomcat .
Yes the more accurate pickups (scatterwounds) would in fact give you more of the classic Byrds tone ....however ,Riger was famous for pulling funny things in the recording process, playing thru a Walkie talkie speaker in a shoe box, amoung other things ... so Dual Showman maybe maybe not .
Also ... a Showman is a TWIN amp with out the reverb.
The new amps ...I have no idea if this is true .
Don or Tomcat?
Yes the more accurate pickups (scatterwounds) would in fact give you more of the classic Byrds tone ....however ,Riger was famous for pulling funny things in the recording process, playing thru a Walkie talkie speaker in a shoe box, amoung other things ... so Dual Showman maybe maybe not .
Also ... a Showman is a TWIN amp with out the reverb.
The new amps ...I have no idea if this is true .
Don or Tomcat?
So you too want yours "ALAPWOB"?!?!
OK, my 2 cents worth.First off, everyone seems to have some idea in their head as to what constitutes the old Byrd sound.Now, this is from My vantage point, which is,not unlike others here, that as a kid of 13-15 during the years the Byrds were still on the face of the earth[the original 5, mind you]and having heard live, many local bands using Rick 12s and Fender Showmans or Twins, that THAT sound is forever ingrained in my head.Back then, I'd bet you that hardly Anyone, unless you knew about the tech goings on in a recording studio, even heard of a compressor, or anything like that.My first good amp was a new '66 Fender Bassman, No JBLS[I'm really not sure What was in it..]and by 1970 when I got my first 360-12[later converted to 370-12 Byrd wiring] when I plugged into that amp, with that guitar and those original toasters, and those flatwounds, I got "that" sound.I also tried the guitar through a friends' single Showman, as well as other friends Twins.Each of these amps had a bit different charachter to them, but with the Rick, "the sound" was Always delivered.And No compressor present.If someone had brought one around,and let me try it, I'm sure it might have really been a shock revelation,even better than what I did get with what I had.Then, in Feb '70, I saw the "country Byrds".McGuinn had 3 Fender amps, All with JBLs; a Twin, A Super Reverb, and a Dual Showman reverb.If you have a copy of the Original "untitled" LP, check out the Rick 12 tone on "Lover of the Bayou", and "Rock and Roll Star".Then put on "Back FRom Rio".Roger was Not
using a live compressor on untitled,however, he Did have the Vox Treble Booster kicked in,which gives a different edge, but still very recognizable as a Rick. To those who have never
actually plugged in a Real Vox treble booster, you don't know what I mean. I have one, and not until I got one in the mid 90s, did I "get" what Roger did to obtain the live "edge" from the Monterey boxed set, or on Untitled.It's That big a deal.Story has it that supposedly some approximation of the treble booster is incorporated into the RM compressor circuit, but it must be altered more than a bit, as the "edge" it gives Cannot compare to the "icepick-between-the-eyeballs" that the Real original T boost gave.
Not that I necessarily endorse the T boost, as these things are Just Plain Dangerous!!Back to mew amps? Well, I have 2 reissue Twins, and more recently, 2 reissue '65 Super Reverbs.I think the Twins could benefit from a different speaker than the Eminence they've been using[I heard a Very recent Twin, and they've now switched to a Jensen, and, personal taste or whatever, I Hate the Jensens, at least for good crisp clean, and snappy.The Supers Also have Jensens, but I really have no complaints on them.YMMV....
using a live compressor on untitled,however, he Did have the Vox Treble Booster kicked in,which gives a different edge, but still very recognizable as a Rick. To those who have never
actually plugged in a Real Vox treble booster, you don't know what I mean. I have one, and not until I got one in the mid 90s, did I "get" what Roger did to obtain the live "edge" from the Monterey boxed set, or on Untitled.It's That big a deal.Story has it that supposedly some approximation of the treble booster is incorporated into the RM compressor circuit, but it must be altered more than a bit, as the "edge" it gives Cannot compare to the "icepick-between-the-eyeballs" that the Real original T boost gave.
Not that I necessarily endorse the T boost, as these things are Just Plain Dangerous!!Back to mew amps? Well, I have 2 reissue Twins, and more recently, 2 reissue '65 Super Reverbs.I think the Twins could benefit from a different speaker than the Eminence they've been using[I heard a Very recent Twin, and they've now switched to a Jensen, and, personal taste or whatever, I Hate the Jensens, at least for good crisp clean, and snappy.The Supers Also have Jensens, but I really have no complaints on them.YMMV....
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mark_telfer
- Veteran RRF member
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 3:48 am
It's my understanding (from photographs) that Jim/Roger used Dual Showmans live and for recording in '65 and '66, but moved to Twin Reverbs for '67, '68 and '69. He's on record somewhere as saying that he didn't like Dual Showmans and has clearly been very happy with his Roland JC-120 for some years now.
It's true that a Dual Showman's amp section is a Twin Reverb without reverb, but the 15" speakers in a closed-back cabinet versus the 12" speakers in an open-back cabinet make the Dual Showman quite a different beast, especially with the tall (refrigerator) cabinets introduced in mid '67.
Very interesting comments about the Vox Treble Booster. Thanks, Don.
It's true that a Dual Showman's amp section is a Twin Reverb without reverb, but the 15" speakers in a closed-back cabinet versus the 12" speakers in an open-back cabinet make the Dual Showman quite a different beast, especially with the tall (refrigerator) cabinets introduced in mid '67.
Very interesting comments about the Vox Treble Booster. Thanks, Don.
"But the man has a 47-string guitar." (Grace Slick on Paul Kantner's attempt to tune his 366/12 during a Winterland show of October 31 1969).
An additional note about the Showmans w/ the Byrds; I can't now recall what the program was[ on MTV?] a couple years back, and basically, it was outtakes from the original D.A. Pennebaker
"Monterey Pop" movie. While the Byrds are Not in
the original show, They Are in these outtakes.
As I recall there were Twins being used, but also, Showman 15" [the "single Showman"]amps. I saw the Byrds on the Tonite show in July '67 and Both Roger and David had Single Showmans, while Chris Hillman had an O.S. small cabinet Dual Showman.Up until early '67, Both Single and Dual Showmans had IdenticaL sized cabinets,but the Dual was a closed back infinite baffle[sealed]
cabinet, while the Single had the metal "tone ring" the JBL 15" mounted to, and achieved a kind of "porting" function.I've always liked the Singles a lot, and I don't know why I've never owned one[I've had nearly all the other ones!]
One of these with a Rick 12 has an almost magical tone, if not very loud, as the Single cabinet projects like nobodys' business.
"Monterey Pop" movie. While the Byrds are Not in
the original show, They Are in these outtakes.
As I recall there were Twins being used, but also, Showman 15" [the "single Showman"]amps. I saw the Byrds on the Tonite show in July '67 and Both Roger and David had Single Showmans, while Chris Hillman had an O.S. small cabinet Dual Showman.Up until early '67, Both Single and Dual Showmans had IdenticaL sized cabinets,but the Dual was a closed back infinite baffle[sealed]
cabinet, while the Single had the metal "tone ring" the JBL 15" mounted to, and achieved a kind of "porting" function.I've always liked the Singles a lot, and I don't know why I've never owned one[I've had nearly all the other ones!]
One of these with a Rick 12 has an almost magical tone, if not very loud, as the Single cabinet projects like nobodys' business.
In the studio; Yes. Live? In my observation and from stuff I've seen guys talk about on the net, supposedly he messed with something in a live setting, but I question whether it happened in the 60s. Maybe by the 70s. The succession of Rick tones he got[this is Only the guitar,] were with the 1st 360-12, 2 PUs No gadgets; the 2nd Rick 370-12[which replaced the 1st, which had been modded to Byrd wiring]which ended up w/ Teble boost, and the 3rd 370-12 which also had a T boost. I don't know that he modded his light show or doubleneck like this though.By the end of the Byrds and the start of his solo career in '73, he was using phase shifters, till at least late 70s/early 80s when he switched to chorus effects.
Then by '87, he got the RM370-12 w/ the built in compressor.I'm probably omitting some finer points, but this is it in a nutshell.The man's an obsessive gadget freak, to be sure...
Then by '87, he got the RM370-12 w/ the built in compressor.I'm probably omitting some finer points, but this is it in a nutshell.The man's an obsessive gadget freak, to be sure...