As posted in the "general" forum:
'...in 1987, I saved up enough money to order . . . a Fireglo 360/12V64.
Not having played a 12 string before, I thought the difficulty in playing it was my fault. I took it to a local luthier who told me that the neck was set on the guitar wrong. He set up the guitar as best he could, but told me to contact RIC.
I sent my guitar back to RIC in (APRIL OF 1990) and the tech there ADMITTED that the neck was set on wrong .... . His solution was to take the bridge plate and grind it down to 1/4 its original thickness and the bridge is still near all the way down!
I have (that) invoice . . .which says: "Modified bridge base plate for better playing action and intonation."
After 2 years of sending letters to RIC to get them to cover a neck reset, I received a final rejection letter January 21, 1992 from a Thomas Carr which in part states: "There have been a few changes in the manufacturing process of the guitars currently produced. The difference on how the guitars are currently manufactured compared to 4-5 years ago is the basis for our current 5-year warranty."
To me, that translated "we are admitting that you paid $1200 for a piece of junk, better luck next time."'
This was clearly sloppy work. It was obviously not something that occured over time, but was a defect from the beginning. When I sent the guitar back to Rickenbacker, it was LESS THAN 3 years old - APRIL 1990! It was junk, they knew it and they shaved the base plate down - forever marking the guitar as having a neck problem.
Nice company, huh? And Rickenbacker sues other companies for infringing on their good name?
I dare somebody to try to make me feel good about this. And don't give me crud about "legally they were under no obligation . . . " or "caveat emptor." If they want to sell to a customer once and never sell to them again and let their REPUTATION be their advertising, then I say live by the sword, die by the sword.
And I would assume that this will be removed at the request of someone who wants to hide the truth - I just hope it stays up long enough to allow people the chance to make an INFORMED decision.
Well, does anybody care to respond? I will gladly send copies of all my correspondence to anyone interested in seeing it.
Anyone want to buy my guitar now? I didn't think so! In litigious terms, we lawyers call that "damages." Right Mr. Hall?
Opinions wanted (mostly copied from "general" fo
Moderator: jingle_jangle
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jfgesquire
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Your lucky that you live in the states. Usually if they find a dud instrument in the quality control department they just pack it up and send it to Australia.
Here (in Australia) it is very hard to find good newer rics. Although older ones seem fine, a good 75% of the rics that I have seen from the 90s have wobbly neck syndrome or dodgy finish syndrome and even all of the above syndrome!
I have a 360/12 that I love to hate. It can be setup fine but next time it comes out of the box it will need doing again. Still, it sounds wonderfull and I'm still a ric-o-phile!
Sad to hear that you got a dud.
Here (in Australia) it is very hard to find good newer rics. Although older ones seem fine, a good 75% of the rics that I have seen from the 90s have wobbly neck syndrome or dodgy finish syndrome and even all of the above syndrome!
I have a 360/12 that I love to hate. It can be setup fine but next time it comes out of the box it will need doing again. Still, it sounds wonderfull and I'm still a ric-o-phile!
Sad to hear that you got a dud.
I confused Faraday's cage, with Schrodinger's cat box....
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jfgesquire
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The purpose of my post was not just to bash RIC, because, in fact, I love the guitar like a mutt dog. It was my first guitar, and everybody knows how that goes.
I submitted the post for several other reasons:
1. to get it off my chest - 10 years is a long time to hold it in!
2. sympathy
3. closure
4. solicitation of free therapy to convince me that I'm not wierd for loving the guitar but hating the company responsible for its condition.
5. help with making it playable. I quit playing out regularly shortly after I started Law School in 1991, and really haven't played it much. But now I want to start playing again. A few months in Seattle may not be that bad. I'll have to pick up a 12 saddle bridge first.
Your response covers items 2 and 4 nicely! Thanks!
I submitted the post for several other reasons:
1. to get it off my chest - 10 years is a long time to hold it in!
2. sympathy
3. closure
4. solicitation of free therapy to convince me that I'm not wierd for loving the guitar but hating the company responsible for its condition.
5. help with making it playable. I quit playing out regularly shortly after I started Law School in 1991, and really haven't played it much. But now I want to start playing again. A few months in Seattle may not be that bad. I'll have to pick up a 12 saddle bridge first.
Your response covers items 2 and 4 nicely! Thanks!
You should make a call to Mr. Hall. If he's half the gentleman I believe him to be, he will make it right. One of the things Ric has going for them is the reputation of manufacturing consistent high quality instruments. I'm sure Mr. Hall would want to protect that image, especially in this situation.
This is the suckiest Ric story I've ever heard.
This is the suckiest Ric story I've ever heard.
Sympathy?
I guess I don't understand why you purchased the guitar in the first place if there was THAT much of an issue with the neck/action. I have played various RIC 12 strings hanging in music stores for years and by and large they have been un-playable.
I finally picked up a 360/12v64 at Elderly in Michigan some four years ago or so and I recently grabbed a 370/12.
Anyone who expects to go back to the manufacturer of a wooden instrument after ten years is smokin' something in my opinion - the time to (easily) deal with this issue expired some 30 days after you shelled out your savings all those years ago.
I guess I don't understand why you purchased the guitar in the first place if there was THAT much of an issue with the neck/action. I have played various RIC 12 strings hanging in music stores for years and by and large they have been un-playable.
I finally picked up a 360/12v64 at Elderly in Michigan some four years ago or so and I recently grabbed a 370/12.
Anyone who expects to go back to the manufacturer of a wooden instrument after ten years is smokin' something in my opinion - the time to (easily) deal with this issue expired some 30 days after you shelled out your savings all those years ago.
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jfgesquire
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The following is part of my reply to a recent e-mail on this subject:
"The only way he (Mr. Hall) could persuade me is to say 'yes, we screwed up.'
I am not looking for RIC to pay for anything. I don't expect a company to pay for something 15 years after they made it. I'm a businessman, too. It's not feasible. But the apology would be nice."
And I don't mean just apologizing for a poorly made guitar, I mean apologizing for the fact that it wasn't handled properly when the guitar was just 2 years old.
YES, I KNOW, the original warranty was for only 1 year, and it was a limited warranty at that, but even Ford is replacing some 3.8L engines after the written warranty because positive comsumer reaction through that type of cutomer service nets more repeat customers per dollar spent than advertising to acquire new customers.
But then again, if RIC is happy with their market share, and they feel that there is an endless supply of new customers, I'll be the one vilified and attacked.
Time will prove me correct - it always does.
"The only way he (Mr. Hall) could persuade me is to say 'yes, we screwed up.'
I am not looking for RIC to pay for anything. I don't expect a company to pay for something 15 years after they made it. I'm a businessman, too. It's not feasible. But the apology would be nice."
And I don't mean just apologizing for a poorly made guitar, I mean apologizing for the fact that it wasn't handled properly when the guitar was just 2 years old.
YES, I KNOW, the original warranty was for only 1 year, and it was a limited warranty at that, but even Ford is replacing some 3.8L engines after the written warranty because positive comsumer reaction through that type of cutomer service nets more repeat customers per dollar spent than advertising to acquire new customers.
But then again, if RIC is happy with their market share, and they feel that there is an endless supply of new customers, I'll be the one vilified and attacked.
Time will prove me correct - it always does.
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jfgesquire
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In direct response to Gary,
Obviously you did not read my post.
1. I ordered the guitar, it was not hanging on a wall.
2. It was my first guitar, not just my first 12 string. I am supposed to know that THEY, THE EXPERT GUITAR MANUFACTURING COMPANY, did something wrong? You hold the consumer to a higher standard of knowledge than the manufacturer? What are you smoking????
3. Besides, I am NOT going back after the manufacturer for ANY compensation NOW, I WENT after the manufacturer when the guitar was only 2 YEARS OLD, TWELVE YEARS AGO.
4. Thirty days?????? The warranty in 1987 was 1 year, shortly thereafter they offered a 5 year warranty.
5. Easily deal????? Customer service is not handled through the dealer, you MUST contact RIC directly. Do you know how much it costs to mail a guitar back and forth from New York to California and back 2 times at your expense, to call long distance 7 times to a toll number accross the country, to have written correspondence not even responded to??????
Obviously you did not read my post.
1. I ordered the guitar, it was not hanging on a wall.
2. It was my first guitar, not just my first 12 string. I am supposed to know that THEY, THE EXPERT GUITAR MANUFACTURING COMPANY, did something wrong? You hold the consumer to a higher standard of knowledge than the manufacturer? What are you smoking????
3. Besides, I am NOT going back after the manufacturer for ANY compensation NOW, I WENT after the manufacturer when the guitar was only 2 YEARS OLD, TWELVE YEARS AGO.
4. Thirty days?????? The warranty in 1987 was 1 year, shortly thereafter they offered a 5 year warranty.
5. Easily deal????? Customer service is not handled through the dealer, you MUST contact RIC directly. Do you know how much it costs to mail a guitar back and forth from New York to California and back 2 times at your expense, to call long distance 7 times to a toll number accross the country, to have written correspondence not even responded to??????
I understood that you ordered the guitar - however, unless you ordered it and signed away all rights to accept what was delivered it seems to me that you had recourse with the dealer that took your order at the time you originally opened the case. Dealing with it right then and there, within the first 30 days would have been easier. Easier than waiting until 2 years later. Easier than looking for closure now.
Get rid of it and get a Gibson 335/12 and be happy instead of carrying around all sorts of baggage.
There was a guy who decided recently that he had a "problem" with an expensive Stephen Stills White Falcon re-issue. While he came to this decision at the end of owning the guitar for a year - it was purely a cosmetic issue that he didn't notice. In my opinion, the easiest thing for a manufacturer to do is either refund the money or replace the guitar.
I know how hard it is to get GOOD service on ANYTHING - this is one reason that (in general) I prefer to do my own service and a reason to not buy something which requires service right out of the box. One of the reasons it took me so long to find and buy a RIC.
I think that RIC must be content with the niche they occupy. I'm not defending them - I think that they (and Gretsch) could use better customer relations.
I ain't looking to fight with you
frighten you
or be uptight with you
drag you down or bring you down
etc...
Get rid of it and get a Gibson 335/12 and be happy instead of carrying around all sorts of baggage.
There was a guy who decided recently that he had a "problem" with an expensive Stephen Stills White Falcon re-issue. While he came to this decision at the end of owning the guitar for a year - it was purely a cosmetic issue that he didn't notice. In my opinion, the easiest thing for a manufacturer to do is either refund the money or replace the guitar.
I know how hard it is to get GOOD service on ANYTHING - this is one reason that (in general) I prefer to do my own service and a reason to not buy something which requires service right out of the box. One of the reasons it took me so long to find and buy a RIC.
I think that RIC must be content with the niche they occupy. I'm not defending them - I think that they (and Gretsch) could use better customer relations.
I ain't looking to fight with you
frighten you
or be uptight with you
drag you down or bring you down
etc...
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rickplayer
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justonwo
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jfgesquire
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Gary,
I was 20 years old in 1987, knew nothing about guitars and had a good job. RIC's best customer: young and naive with disposable income.
My life has finally slowed down, a result of the birth of my son 10 months ago. I can finally catch up on things that have been bothering me. For example, how could the Buffalo Bills lose 4 straight Super Bowls???? How did Thurman Thomas misplace his helmet????? (just had to get that off my chest, too.)
My brother special ordered a 370/12 with vintage hardware right after the RM's sold out. Looks just like an RM and plays beautifully - which I think is mostly because the 24 frets gives a better gluing area.
Anyway, Gary, I've seen you over at the Gretsch pages, and I know you are a good guy. You have a reissue 6128T-1957 Duojet, don't you? I had a chance to buy a real '57 in 1988 for $1500 but picked up my '67 Country Gent for $680 instead. That is one decision that I will NEVER know if I picked the right one.
I was 20 years old in 1987, knew nothing about guitars and had a good job. RIC's best customer: young and naive with disposable income.
My life has finally slowed down, a result of the birth of my son 10 months ago. I can finally catch up on things that have been bothering me. For example, how could the Buffalo Bills lose 4 straight Super Bowls???? How did Thurman Thomas misplace his helmet????? (just had to get that off my chest, too.)
My brother special ordered a 370/12 with vintage hardware right after the RM's sold out. Looks just like an RM and plays beautifully - which I think is mostly because the 24 frets gives a better gluing area.
Anyway, Gary, I've seen you over at the Gretsch pages, and I know you are a good guy. You have a reissue 6128T-1957 Duojet, don't you? I had a chance to buy a real '57 in 1988 for $1500 but picked up my '67 Country Gent for $680 instead. That is one decision that I will NEVER know if I picked the right one.
Joseph, you have been very blunt here, so I hope you understand the bluntness of my response:
Take responsibility for your own failure to act. I was 13 when I bought my first guitar and I would have known if something was seriously wrong; I had such an experience when I was 15 (Gibson flattop) and knew right away. You were 20, that's way too old to claim naivete. If you knew nothing about guitars, that's hardly Rickenbacker's fault. It's your responsibility to know enough about any product to bring any necessary claim during the warranty period. You didn't.
Your Ford analogy is faulty. There were no widespread problems with your model. Even so, your problem didn't happen post-warranty, you admit you just failed to act during the warranty. As to the 5 year warranty now offered, well, just like car warranties, guitar warranties are usually longer today, and part of the reason is improvement in manufacturing techniques. It hardly means that everything prior is junk. Companies do improve their products. It's called progress.
Your not-so-veiled threat to sue is outrageous and you know it.
Take responsibility for your own failure to act. I was 13 when I bought my first guitar and I would have known if something was seriously wrong; I had such an experience when I was 15 (Gibson flattop) and knew right away. You were 20, that's way too old to claim naivete. If you knew nothing about guitars, that's hardly Rickenbacker's fault. It's your responsibility to know enough about any product to bring any necessary claim during the warranty period. You didn't.
Your Ford analogy is faulty. There were no widespread problems with your model. Even so, your problem didn't happen post-warranty, you admit you just failed to act during the warranty. As to the 5 year warranty now offered, well, just like car warranties, guitar warranties are usually longer today, and part of the reason is improvement in manufacturing techniques. It hardly means that everything prior is junk. Companies do improve their products. It's called progress.
Your not-so-veiled threat to sue is outrageous and you know it.
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jfgesquire
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- Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 3:32 pm
I welcome your opinion, Dave, but disagree in part.
I have already acknowledged that I failed to act within the warranty period, and technically, legally, I am without recourse. But to say that a person should "KNOW" a defect as subtle visually, but as serious mechanically is unreasonable.
Further, to say that there are no widespread problems is also erroneous. Most of the posts to this luthier forum are in reference to improperly set necks from the factory. Would that a forum like this existed in 1987, I would have been more careful in my purchase. But alas, there was no such resource for me to reference before my purchase. Do not use knowledge available today to judge a case from 1987.
To say that there have been improvements in manufacturing techniques is accurate, but the part where you glue the neck on the guitar really has been mastered for quite some time. I have a 1947 Gibson J-45 sitting on my lap right now, and it appears that the guy in the Gibson factory had no problem gluing the neck on this guitar 40 years prior to the guy NOT knowing how to glue the neck on my Rickenbacker.
Lastly, just because I talk like a lawyer does not mean I intend to sue, it just means I'm a lawyer. I have no grounds to sue. Now if the defect caused me to lose control of my guitar and burst into flames, then I would sue!
I have already acknowledged that I failed to act within the warranty period, and technically, legally, I am without recourse. But to say that a person should "KNOW" a defect as subtle visually, but as serious mechanically is unreasonable.
Further, to say that there are no widespread problems is also erroneous. Most of the posts to this luthier forum are in reference to improperly set necks from the factory. Would that a forum like this existed in 1987, I would have been more careful in my purchase. But alas, there was no such resource for me to reference before my purchase. Do not use knowledge available today to judge a case from 1987.
To say that there have been improvements in manufacturing techniques is accurate, but the part where you glue the neck on the guitar really has been mastered for quite some time. I have a 1947 Gibson J-45 sitting on my lap right now, and it appears that the guy in the Gibson factory had no problem gluing the neck on this guitar 40 years prior to the guy NOT knowing how to glue the neck on my Rickenbacker.
Lastly, just because I talk like a lawyer does not mean I intend to sue, it just means I'm a lawyer. I have no grounds to sue. Now if the defect caused me to lose control of my guitar and burst into flames, then I would sue!