Last fall, I was a somewhat disgruntled 370-12 owner. I had ordered a brand-new 2002 Mapleglo 370-12VP that came from the dealer with a factory set-up and a 6-saddle bridge. I had never really played a RIC 12 much before, so I was not sure of how difficult it would be to play one. The intonnation was ok and the neck was straight, and the tight string spacing was not insurmountable, but still a challenge for this newbie. However, it took tremendous effort to finger the strings, especially near the nut, despite the guitar appearing to have a reasonably low action. After a 3-4 months of hard-labor practicing, I reduced the guitar to a six-string 370. I actually thought for a while that I could not hack it as a RIC 12-string player. The most frustrating thing about it was that I had over a decade of 12-string acoustic experience, without any difficulties like this.
In January 2003, my wife and I went to see Roger McGuinn in concert, and I got to meet him after the show (and he autographed the upper pickguard of the 370/12). After seeing HIS guitar up-close (about 2 feet away) after the show, I was able to see what a good set-up is supposed to look like. The thing that really caught my eye was the height of the strings near the nut. It looked much lower than what was on my guitar. I knew right then that the factory nut-slot cuts were too high. I could also hear the benefits of the 12-saddle bridge when Roger played his guitar.
2 days after the show, I ordered a 12-saddle bridge, new RIC 12-string sets, and a spare pickguard. The McGuinn show gave me new enthusiasm for the 370-12! I took the guitar to the top guitar tech in my city as soon as the new parts came in, and 2 weeks later I was back in business. (I probably should have taken it to him when I first bought the guitar, but he keeps a very busy schedule!) Sure enough, the tech said that the nut slots were cut too high at the factory. He didn't blame me for giving up on 12-string for a while. He set up the guitar with a nice low action with the 12-saddle bridge, and now the playability of the guitar is near effortless. I can play lead runs and barre chords all over the neck with ease. I still have to monitor my left-hand technique a little on the first three frets, with the tight spacing, but overall I am one extremely happy camper. I can now play note-perfect renditions of Byrds songs, with Roger's '66-'67 era (high compression) sound dialed up on my Line 6 POD, running through Vox amps.
So, Mr. Hall, I just wanted to let you know that I am a very satisfied customer, even though it took a little while to get there. You might want to consider tighter quality checks on the nut slots, and possibly make the 12-saddle bridge a standard-issue item on all RIC 12's. Coming from an engineering background, I understand all-too-well the difficulties in balancing tooling/labor requirements vs. customer specifications & requests. With that being said, I hereby withdraw my previous plea for a wider 12-string neck! I just believe that the 12-string setups need a little more TLC. I've been playing Rickenbackers for 16 years now (beginning with my dad's 1958 345 Capri), and they will always be my favorite guitars.
Sincerely, Jeff
Back in the 12-saddle (Please read, Mr. Hall!)
Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4
Your set-up is the most personal thing about your guitar. I have two RIC 12 strings and apart from the bridge swap I did on both, I haven't done anything to the nut. I beleive that Mr. Hall has offered the opinion here (and elsewhere) that based on the number of instruments they ship and the difficulty of "pleasing all the people all the time" that their factory set-ups are just that: the best the factory can do prior to you imposing your specific desires on a particular instrument.
I think that any player needs to be able to do basic set-ups themselves or at least recognize the portions of a set-up for what they contribute and be able to assess whether or not they need to be changed by a tech/luthier.
I think that any player needs to be able to do basic set-ups themselves or at least recognize the portions of a set-up for what they contribute and be able to assess whether or not they need to be changed by a tech/luthier.
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cafeathers
Gary wrote:
"I think that any player needs to be able to do basic set-ups themselves or at least recognize the portions of a set-up for what they contribute and be able to assess whether or not they need to be changed by a tech/luthier."
I agree with your statement to some extent, but as I stated in my original post, I really had no prior experience with a Rick 12-string. It is very rare to see a Rick 12 in my part of Texas, and you might run across one in a music store once every 4 or 5 years (usually very high behind the counter!). So, it is difficult to compare setups and get a feel for what is good & bad. You really cannot even compare a Rick 12 to a normal acoustic 12 in terms of qualitative feel. They are two very different guitars. In fact, my 370/12 was the first and only guitar that I have ever ordered, as opposed to buying a hand-picked guitar in a music store. Running down to the store, trying out 3 or 4 Gibson 335's, and picking out the best one is relatively easy in my area. The only other 370/12 I had ever seen before in person was privately owned, and I really didn't get to play it. And it certainly did not have the custom-order vintage options mine has. Quite simply, a quality comparison on set-ups was out of the question for me.
The only guitars in my collection I have really set-up myself have been my Telecaster and various Gibsons. Anyone can setup a Gibson! A Rick 12 is a little more complicated than a Fender or Gibson, especially with the 4-post bridge & twin truss-rods, so it is more difficult to discern a problem variable in the setup. After visually comparing my guitar to Roger's, it was clearly apparent that the problem in mine was in the setup of the nut. I only know of two good techs in my area, and they keep very busy work schedules. So, it's not really feasible for me to learn how to perform precision set-ups. I can handle bridge adjustment and intonnation, but I prefer to leave truss-rod and nut adjustments to a professional.
I am a fairly accomplished self-taught guitarist (16 years playing now) who is VERY particular about quality set-ups. Everyone who has tried out one of my guitars has commented on how well they play and sound. Ability-wise as a player, I have been compared to George Harrison, and to a lesser extent, Leo Kottke. Like George, I had to WORK on developing my skills, and I work within my limits. And those limits include guitar maintenance. If you read the book "Beatles Gear", you will learn that the great John Lennon himself was not very proficient at being a DIY guitar-tech. But he sure could play and knew about great guitar sounds, and he's really the guy who put Rickenbacker on the map. I did not start out gifted and all-knowing about guitars. My recent experience with the 370/12 is merely part of the learning process that never ends.
"I think that any player needs to be able to do basic set-ups themselves or at least recognize the portions of a set-up for what they contribute and be able to assess whether or not they need to be changed by a tech/luthier."
I agree with your statement to some extent, but as I stated in my original post, I really had no prior experience with a Rick 12-string. It is very rare to see a Rick 12 in my part of Texas, and you might run across one in a music store once every 4 or 5 years (usually very high behind the counter!). So, it is difficult to compare setups and get a feel for what is good & bad. You really cannot even compare a Rick 12 to a normal acoustic 12 in terms of qualitative feel. They are two very different guitars. In fact, my 370/12 was the first and only guitar that I have ever ordered, as opposed to buying a hand-picked guitar in a music store. Running down to the store, trying out 3 or 4 Gibson 335's, and picking out the best one is relatively easy in my area. The only other 370/12 I had ever seen before in person was privately owned, and I really didn't get to play it. And it certainly did not have the custom-order vintage options mine has. Quite simply, a quality comparison on set-ups was out of the question for me.
The only guitars in my collection I have really set-up myself have been my Telecaster and various Gibsons. Anyone can setup a Gibson! A Rick 12 is a little more complicated than a Fender or Gibson, especially with the 4-post bridge & twin truss-rods, so it is more difficult to discern a problem variable in the setup. After visually comparing my guitar to Roger's, it was clearly apparent that the problem in mine was in the setup of the nut. I only know of two good techs in my area, and they keep very busy work schedules. So, it's not really feasible for me to learn how to perform precision set-ups. I can handle bridge adjustment and intonnation, but I prefer to leave truss-rod and nut adjustments to a professional.
I am a fairly accomplished self-taught guitarist (16 years playing now) who is VERY particular about quality set-ups. Everyone who has tried out one of my guitars has commented on how well they play and sound. Ability-wise as a player, I have been compared to George Harrison, and to a lesser extent, Leo Kottke. Like George, I had to WORK on developing my skills, and I work within my limits. And those limits include guitar maintenance. If you read the book "Beatles Gear", you will learn that the great John Lennon himself was not very proficient at being a DIY guitar-tech. But he sure could play and knew about great guitar sounds, and he's really the guy who put Rickenbacker on the map. I did not start out gifted and all-knowing about guitars. My recent experience with the 370/12 is merely part of the learning process that never ends.
My factory setup is too high on my 6 string 330 and what surprises me is that the guitar doesn't come with a truss rod adjustment wrench. Rickenbacker is charging me $16 plus $6 shipping if I want one. I also need the nut adjusted. But yes, everyone has their own preferences. I'm sure there are people out there very satisfied with their factory set up.
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cafeathers
I do all my own set-ups and most of my own repairs and all my own modifications. It is actually fun and quite relaxing. I also find a personal satisfaction knowing that I can do it.
Like I said I could not understand why the factory could not install the 12-saddle bridge, I mean they have to install a bridge why not the one I want? It is also strange that a truss rod wrench is not included, every other new guitar I have bought comes with one.
Chet
Like I said I could not understand why the factory could not install the 12-saddle bridge, I mean they have to install a bridge why not the one I want? It is also strange that a truss rod wrench is not included, every other new guitar I have bought comes with one.
Chet
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jazzsmith
Does anyone think that it is best to set intonation so that it is a little sharp at the 12th fret? I know that Gretsch used to slant frets up the neck as they claimed that the ear would hear the sound as 'normal'.
Also, about the McGuinn sound - I really don't know a lot about pedals. Would a compressor be in order? I play mostly through a tweed Fender Champ
Also, about the McGuinn sound - I really don't know a lot about pedals. Would a compressor be in order? I play mostly through a tweed Fender Champ
Jeffrey: I see no benefit in intonating your Rickenbacker so that it is sharp at the 12th fret.
In order to obtain the McGuinn sound, a compressor/sustain pedal of one type or another is essential.
In order to obtain the McGuinn sound, a compressor/sustain pedal of one type or another is essential.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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Please join the Official RickResource Forum Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/groups/379271585440277
For those of you who use Line 6 Pods with Rickenbacker 12-strings, here are the general settings McGuinn uses for his live shows:
British Blues amp model, 2x12 cabinet
Output level--to your taste
Drive-- Off
Bass, mid-range, treble-- to your taste
Chan vol. 10
Compressor effect set between 7 & 10
Reverb -- 4
Basically, the British Blues setting is a model of a Marshall JTM 45 amp. It inherently has more bass and warmth than most of the other amp models. I can understand why McGuinn chose this model, since he plays his 370/12RM unaccompanied. It makes the guitar sound as full as possible, since he only uses the rear pickup. McGuinn chose the Pod because the 1980's effects technology of the onboard compressor on his guitar finally caught up to him. The 370/12RM compressor likes to eat batteries quickly, and it can be quite noisy in certain venues due to 50-cycle hum from lighting. The Pod has a very powerful compressor and a decent noise gate. Roger no longer uses his Roland JC-120 at shows, and runs the Pod straight through the PA. Besides, you can easily dial up a JC-120 on the Pod!
Personally, I favor the Fender Black Face amp model to get the Byrds-era sound, with the cabinet set for 2x12 or 4x12. You would be amazed at how closely the Pod replicates the vintage Fender sound. It compares quite favorably when played along with Byrds CD's. After all, one of the perks of being signed to Columbia in the 1960's was unlimited access to Fender (CBS) equipment! For practice at home, I run the Pod through a couple of Vox Pathfinders. The Vox amps are very neutral-sounding by themselves (on clean setting), so they make an excellent output platform for the Pod. With the right tone settings, you can make the Vox's sound 100% Fender. It's amazing how far digital effects technology has come in the past 5 years, and I think the new modeling gadgets are going to make amp collections obsolete. Nothing against the great old amps on my part (I love old HiWatts!), it's just that the Pod is more convenient, portable, and cost-effective.
British Blues amp model, 2x12 cabinet
Output level--to your taste
Drive-- Off
Bass, mid-range, treble-- to your taste
Chan vol. 10
Compressor effect set between 7 & 10
Reverb -- 4
Basically, the British Blues setting is a model of a Marshall JTM 45 amp. It inherently has more bass and warmth than most of the other amp models. I can understand why McGuinn chose this model, since he plays his 370/12RM unaccompanied. It makes the guitar sound as full as possible, since he only uses the rear pickup. McGuinn chose the Pod because the 1980's effects technology of the onboard compressor on his guitar finally caught up to him. The 370/12RM compressor likes to eat batteries quickly, and it can be quite noisy in certain venues due to 50-cycle hum from lighting. The Pod has a very powerful compressor and a decent noise gate. Roger no longer uses his Roland JC-120 at shows, and runs the Pod straight through the PA. Besides, you can easily dial up a JC-120 on the Pod!
Personally, I favor the Fender Black Face amp model to get the Byrds-era sound, with the cabinet set for 2x12 or 4x12. You would be amazed at how closely the Pod replicates the vintage Fender sound. It compares quite favorably when played along with Byrds CD's. After all, one of the perks of being signed to Columbia in the 1960's was unlimited access to Fender (CBS) equipment! For practice at home, I run the Pod through a couple of Vox Pathfinders. The Vox amps are very neutral-sounding by themselves (on clean setting), so they make an excellent output platform for the Pod. With the right tone settings, you can make the Vox's sound 100% Fender. It's amazing how far digital effects technology has come in the past 5 years, and I think the new modeling gadgets are going to make amp collections obsolete. Nothing against the great old amps on my part (I love old HiWatts!), it's just that the Pod is more convenient, portable, and cost-effective.