Gibson Finish Question

randyz · Post by **randyz** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:02 am

In the last couple of years, I've acquired (2) new Gibson guitars, a Les Paul Junior and an SG. Both came with standard shiny finishes (vintage burst and heritage cherry respectively). I've never seen finishes so easily damaged by guitar stand pads. They seem to react with stands that have never caused problems with Ricks, Epiphones, etc. What kind of finish does Gibson use and why is it so reactive? Thanks!

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:32 am

If these are softening, they most definitely are not polyester, which unless abraded is chemically inert.

Depending upon the material in your guitar stand padding, and how long it took to soften the finish, they could be polyurethane or nitrocellulose.

It's not the finish that's reactive. It's the plasticizers in the padding.

randyz · Post by **randyz** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:52 am

Paul: It only takes a few minutes to create a slight dullness in the finish wherever the padding contacts the Gibson guitars. I've owned these stands for at least (15) years and other guitars like Ricks, Epiphones, Fenders, etc don't have any issues no matter how long they sit in these stands (months or years). The padding is a yellowish looking tubing (i.e. surgical tubing). It seems very strange to me!

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:06 am

Wow! I wish I knew more about the finishes used on Gibsons. I'm only a generalist when it comes to Gibson finishes. Guess you could say that they are a sort of blind spot.

The tubing you have is gum rubber, and should not cause any problems. I agree that it's very strange.

Perhaps another contributor could enlighten all of us!

johnallg · Post by **johnallg** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:18 am

I thought some surgical tubing had silicone in it?

milo · Post by **milo** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:42 am

As far as I know, the normal glossy finishes on Gibsons are still nitro-lacquer.

Don't ever play one if you have recently used insect repellant either. A friend of mine was playing outdoors and I never thought to mention it to him. Somebody (who thought they were being helpful) came up to him and sprayed his arms with one of the name brand bug killers and got a light misting on his ES-335. It left a cloudy mess everywhere that the mist landed on the face of the guitar. He was able to have most of it rubbed out by a repair shop to the point where it's not noticeable unless you know to look for it, but it could have been a lot worse if more spray had got on the finish.

I don't know if the conversion varnish on a Rick is affected by bug spray, but every spring I now warn people that I know about insect repellant and guitars.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:51 am

John A.: This may be true, but this is working on the finish in minutes. I think Jeff is correct.

BTW, bug spray has alcohol and mineral oil in it. A no-no for nitro, but won't affect conversion varnish.

soundmasterg · Post by **soundmasterg** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:54 am

I've heard that Gibson's cheaper stuff line most of the Epiphone line is using poly paints of some sort rather than nitro. I just got a new cherry red Epi Dot and it seems to show smudges and fingerprints quite easily compared to other guitars.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:11 pm

There are three types of "poly" in paint:

Poly Vinyl (latex)
Polyester
Polyurethane

Poly Vinyl emulsion is house paint.

Asian manufacturers use quite a bit of polyester, as it is very undemanding as a material and easy to spray and finish. I'd bet
that the cheaper Epis are using this.

Polyurethane is tough and more flexible but trickier to stock, spray and finish.

randyz · Post by **randyz** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:17 pm

I have several Korean Epi Casinos. They have very hard, tough, and shiny finishes. Since they are low end guitars, I'm sure it's not an expensive finish, but they look great and stand up to lots of accidents without showing any signs of damage.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:45 pm

That's typical of polyester lacquer. This is the same finish you find on newer Asian pianos, and in fact the technology is an offshoot of their experience with this finish on keyboard instruments.

I have a Kawai grand piano in snow white, which I bought in '84. It is finished in polyester lacquer, and it is still as white and shiny as the day I took delivery. All it ever needs is a damp cloth and a bit of dish soap to get it clean. Amazing stuff.

steve_hershberger · Post by **steve_hershberger** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:48 am

Yes, real Gibsons (not Epis) are nitro finished. Not sure about the lower priced Gibsons (is there really such a thing?

) though. Well, actually I have a faded LP DC Special that was "only" $500, so I guess that qualifies - at least in comparison to the rest of their line(s).

Anyway, I can say without a doubt that my one stand with yellow "rubber" (or whatever it is) is the one that damaged the finish on my goldtop Les Paul Standard and my Guild acoustic. The reaction kind of melted the clear nitro and slightly "browned" the bindings on both guitars. Luckily I noticed the damage before it got too severe on either guitar, but the marks are still there permanently.

The fix is to wrap a few layers of cotton material like an old t-shirt or socks around those parts of the stand(s) wherever the body or neck touches and you'll be good to go.

Supposedly there are some stands available that say the rubber they use won't affect any guitar finishes but I'm at the point where I don't trust ANY of them at all, for any of my guitars.

beatlefreak · Post by **beatlefreak** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:09 am

I still say the best thing is not to leave guitars on stands long term. It's not so much the contact as it is the outgassing of the cushioning material. Even 'inert' materials will eventually breakdown in time.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:01 am

Inert materials, by definition do not break down. But all these materials--even so-called "reacted" silicone, maintain a degree of reactivity.

That having been said, fully-cured conversion varnish on my Ricks have not shown any reaction with hanger or stand cushioning.

Placing some T-shirt material around the cushion part on the stand will only slow down the reaction with nitro. Best to wrap a poly bag and THEN to wrap some t-shirt around the cushion. This provides a vapor barrier to the reactive vinyl plasticizers.

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:38 am

Just a note on terminology (sorry, the chemist in me is at it again). Although outgassing may be occurring, that term actually applies strictly to volatile substances, i.e. those having a reasonable vapor pressure at room temperature. What is most likely happening in the situation at hand is migration of the plasticizers and/or additives from the cushion material into the finish. Such migration is driven by diffusion, the natural process by which a substance migrates from an area of higher concentration to one of lower concentration.