John's favorite Rickenbacker - the '58 or '64?

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:03 pm

There's been discussions on this board(and others) about which 325 Lennon favored. I finally dug a late '64 Beat Instrumental out of the closet and John states 'When we returned to England, I bought a Gibson Jumbo, which I've used on many of our records. When we went to the States I bought another Rickenbacker, which for some weird reason, I didn't like half as much as the first one'. And in the Coleman book he lists his first Rickenbacker guitar as his prized possession, number one on the list from a guy who could have afforded pretty much anything at that time. Some have said his '58 was so battered that he quit using it as soon as he got the '64 but that was not the case. It's also interesting that he says he 'bought' another Rickenbacker, not they gave me one.

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 3:49 am

Larry, I think the '58 meant alot to him, probably both the '58 and the '64. With the '58 being his 'first' I can understand how he could've become sentimental about it; lots of music and memories for John through that '58 325. He cherished it enough to have it refurbished in the '70s so he could use it again if need be.

You as an owner of a '58 325 know they are just different from the later 325's in a very cool way. IMHO there is no comparison. Both types are great, but the '58s are IT.

admin · Post by **admin** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 4:07 am

Larry: As always, interesting comments. It never pays to throw away anything Beatle. Forty years later this issue comes in handy.

It is well documented by Rickenbacker that Lennon's second Model 325 was given to him by Rickenbacker. There are still people at Rickenbacker who recall this event. I am not sure why he would make this statement unless he misunderstood what was going on in all the pandemonium. But, I can't resist speculating.

If we examine Lennon's buying pattern, it may help us here. He "purchased" a chromatic harmonica for which he may not have paid full price. He obtained his first Model 325 in Germany on the budget plan and it would seem that the account was eventually settled by Epstein, not Lennon. It would seem that his first Gibson was given to him. John did not have much money in the very early days but he was street smart and did get the gear he needed. Endorsements were certainly a source.While it may have looked better to say he purchased his second Rickenbacker, all of the documented history is contrary to that statement.

Larry, would you buy a Rickenbacker guitar today or even 40 years ago without playing it. Would you buy it if you didn't like it very much. And, if you did not like it, as an experienced guitarist, would you be able to articulate why? Lennon's statement, "for some weird reason, I didn't like half as much as the first one" doesn't add up to me. I consider that he took the instrument because it was given to him, and that it wasn't polite or acceptable to say he didn't like it as much.

To be continued ...

sneakers · Post by **sneakers** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:02 am

Peter, maybe Lennon was like me. I've never played any of my guitars before I bought them. John probably used the "if it looks cool I want it" criteria. In retrospect, his 325's were actually the ultimate rhythm guitar; short scale, fast chord changes, heavier strings, bassier tone. It was an intelligent choice between George's Gretsch and Paul's Hofner. Perfect!

admin · Post by **admin** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 4:10 am

You may be right Sneakers. I would just have to think that he played his first 1958 Capri before purchased it. No question it was an intelligent choice. It was lighter than his second Rickenbacker and the guard and feel was different to be sure. I can see why his original Rick was a favourite. While we are on the subject, however, fours years of playing certainly brought about some wear and tear on the frets.

That Lennon's opinion of his second Rickenbacker was less charitable than his first can be seen here in a statement made during the making of Double Fantasy.

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:22 pm

The way I read it Peter, is that he brought his second Ric to the studio to show the other guys but didn't play it saying that it played like ca-ca. Unless that is what you meant in the first place.

admin · Post by **admin** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 3:58 pm

I read it the same way Bob. I will clarify my previous post.

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 3:55 am

With the severe crack near the headstock and subsequent bad repair job, it was probably near-unplayable even then. I hear that it can't be played at present and that the old repair has failed...

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:15 am

Lennon more than likely had the chance to play his '58 325 before buying it. George Harrison has said John bought it mainly because it was there, looked good and was American made. He just walked into the shop and tried it out and fell in love with it. He never had the chance to try out DB122. The first time he strummed on it was in Florida even though he would be considered the owner for a week already. I haven't seen any real proof that his '64 was given to him. Remember there are two stories about George's 12 string - a radio station bought it for him as a favor for an interview or Rickenbacker gave it to him. The third possibility is that it was paid for by Brian Epstein and at the same time he paid for DB122 and that's why we see the line through the invoice where the price should be. Of course Rickenbacker would not want to say today that The Beatles had to buy their Rickenbackers as that would be embarasssing. And remember that Paul's 4001 was not purchased the first time around(he was more thrifty than John and George) but he did take it the next year when it was given to him. Also, John definitely bought his first J-160E from Rushworth's in Liverpool, although Brian more than likely made the payments and paid it off in full when the money started rolling in. I did get the chance to see V81 and DB122 in Japan this year. The '58 looks great and so does the '64 although it does have the crack in the back of the headstock which would be an easy fix for any good luthier. It was something else to be staring at those two guitars for over two hours.

webhead · Post by **webhead** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:41 am

If I can stick in my 2cents: There's a video out - I think it's called "Fun with the Fab Four" or "Alone and Together" that actually shows a guy handing George the Ricky 12 string. And you can hear John say "Where's mine!" It looked like it was during a press conference. The videos are in VHS format, I still have them boxed up since the 80's when they were released.

dave4004 · Post by **dave4004** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 10:48 am

I've seen the clip, it was the press conference held by WDGY (radio) when the Beatles came to the Twin Cities, and the owner of B-Sharp Music in Minneapolis presented it to George.

admin · Post by **admin** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 2:10 pm

Larry: Thanks for reporting your first-hand observations with regard to V81 and DB122. I have little doubt but that this information will come in handy in our ongoing discussions about the Beatles' gear.

While we may never sort out all of the discrepancies with regard to the sponsors of the Beatles' Rickenbackers, it won't be for lack of trying.

Mr. F.C. Hall was a smart businessman and I cannot see him risking the opportunity to further promote Rickenbacker by asking the Beatles to pay for a handful of instruments. This doesn't good business sense today and I would argue that it wouldn't make sense back in the 1960s as well. Would a CEO make a special appointment with the most popular group in the world, fly across the United States and then ask them to pay for the guitars. Surely this defies all business logic and common sense.

Lest this seem to unduly churlish, Lennon himself said that Rickenbacker was so pleased with the fact that he played one of their instruments that they were willing to keep them in Rickenbackers for the rest of their life. Reference to this can be seen here.

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 2:48 pm

Peter, yes it was only a handful of instruments but Rickenbacker was making only a handful of instruments at that time. The 12-string was one of three at that time, John's DB122 was one of two(the other being the fire-glo, solid-top sample that is now in Japan) and the lefty 4001 was more than likely the first lefty produced and made especially for McCartney. Why would McCartney turn down a free guitar in New York City in 1964 when John and George took theirs? Maybe because it wasn't free until a year later? We weren't there so we can't say for certain what happened back then. It is possible that Brian Epstein contacted Rickenbacker about new guitars for The Beatles and F.C.Hall decided to travel to New York City and deliver them in person? I just haven't seen any proof that the guitars were given to them and as you know I don't believe things just because somebody says it was so. We know George's second Rickenbacker was given to him by B Sharp Music as that is documented on film and I've been to the store and talked to the owner about this. They've had a picture of George accepting that guitar in their store since the 60's, it was really something when that video surfaced of them actually presenting the round-top 12 to George. That's the kind of proof I need or otherwise everything else seems like speculation to me.

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 4:14 pm

Larry,

John Hall had commented on the story of how McCartney was shown the 1964 4001-S over on Voxtalks a few months back.....It is possible that his father, F.C. Hall, borrowed a bass from Manny's Music for the display at the Savoy Hotel on February 8th 1964, or that the lefty 4001-S was delayed in shipment to New York (JH said in those days they used Railway Express and there may have been a problem....a delay, or damage in shipment.....) Anyway something apparently was "borrowed" from Manny's...a guitar or a bass.

John Hall also said he can remember his Father relating that he had sincerely apologized to McCartney for not thinking he was left-handed(did they bring a right handed bass by accident??)....upon reading this particular post I had reminded JH that this recollection by his dad seemed unusual, since McCartney's bass was special-made JUST for him, invoiced on 24 January 1964, about 2 weeks prior to The Beatles arriaval in NYC.

JH had said that he had recently come across a vast number of previously unknown color slides while going thru stuff at his parent's house that he thought may contain some record of The Beatles' Savoy Hotel visit with Mr. Hall.....AFAIK, JH has said nothing further about this....

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:44 pm

If there are photos they would be priceless and answer a lot of questions. Those photos belong in the next Rickenbacker book. I've heard that they brought Paul's lefty 4001, George's 12-string and the 'sample' 325 in fire-glo to New York. But John wanted black so that's why they shipped the black one to Florida. Funny they wouldn't bring the black 325 to New York too. Those pictures could answer some Beatle/Rickenbacker history.