Here's something to discuss - the price differences between countries when it comes to buying a Rickenbacker (new or used, although for the sake of this first post, I want to talk used).
Here in Australia, Rickenbackers are like some kind of mystical holy grail. They sit in guitar stores for thousands upon thousands of dollars and are just completely unattainable to most players.
Being a practical kind of guy, I've looked at buying an excellent condition used guitar. I've looked at places in the States and the UK, and the differences are vast.
The UK, if anything, is like Australia. I see secondhand Rics for, say, 900 pounds that are, conversely, 900 dollars in the US. At our conversion rates, I can buy that same guitar for AUD$2175 from the UK or AUD$1219 from the US. Obviously, I'm going to buy from the US.
But why is this? Why are Rics attracting such a premium overseas? In Australia, I can understand that we are a small market, yada, yada, yada... but the UK is a big market, sitting on the edge of Europe and, if my reading is correct, Rickenbacker is shipping truckloads (well, more correctly planeloads) of guitars over there.
So why do they charge so much? Look at my example again. That price difference is just insane. Why would anyone buy secondhand locally if they were living outside the US?
Price Differences Between Countries
Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4
Interesting thread, Rob.
I picked up my (2003, rarely out of the case) 620/12 for £670 on eBay recently, and thought I'd done OK. To be frank, I consider that a hell of a lot of money for anything, but felt (and have now been satisfied) that I was paying for a fine bit of guitar-making. And it was totally mint as far as I could tell (sadly - why don't people play these damn things?)
Now I have seen 620/12s online in the UK for around £800, which means I paid nearly 80% of list for, effectively, a second-hand guitar. But I have no idea whether those guitars are in stock or vapourware...
Converting the price I paid back into the Ric native currency works out at just over $1200 at an exchange rate of 1.8$ to the £. But this is, frankly, an outrageous exchange rate - long may it continue, but over the past few years I've been getting in and around $1.40 to the £, which would make my Ric (at, say $1.45) a $970 guitar.
So the practical upshot is that I reckon I got a fair price. I had seriously considered holding off my purchase until I go to Kentucky at the end of this month.
But, even if I had got away with avoiding customs charges and VAT, I don't think I would have done much better.
Of course there are bargains out there, and the prices our US cousins pay are outrageously cheap at times - big market etc. Here in the UK, if you hold out for the right deal I reckon you do OK. It may be that in Australia you have such a small market that, and how do I put this kindly, you're screwed...
Good luck
I picked up my (2003, rarely out of the case) 620/12 for £670 on eBay recently, and thought I'd done OK. To be frank, I consider that a hell of a lot of money for anything, but felt (and have now been satisfied) that I was paying for a fine bit of guitar-making. And it was totally mint as far as I could tell (sadly - why don't people play these damn things?)
Now I have seen 620/12s online in the UK for around £800, which means I paid nearly 80% of list for, effectively, a second-hand guitar. But I have no idea whether those guitars are in stock or vapourware...
Converting the price I paid back into the Ric native currency works out at just over $1200 at an exchange rate of 1.8$ to the £. But this is, frankly, an outrageous exchange rate - long may it continue, but over the past few years I've been getting in and around $1.40 to the £, which would make my Ric (at, say $1.45) a $970 guitar.
So the practical upshot is that I reckon I got a fair price. I had seriously considered holding off my purchase until I go to Kentucky at the end of this month.
But, even if I had got away with avoiding customs charges and VAT, I don't think I would have done much better.
Of course there are bargains out there, and the prices our US cousins pay are outrageously cheap at times - big market etc. Here in the UK, if you hold out for the right deal I reckon you do OK. It may be that in Australia you have such a small market that, and how do I put this kindly, you're screwed...
Good luck
Well the freaky thing is, when you convert your guitar into US$ it's quite affordable to me! But if I convert it straight from the pounds, it's insane! If a UK dealer charged me is US$ I'd be fine... but in pounds? That would be nuts - and I guess the exchange rates are the main cause of this problem. We're quite competitive versus the US$, screwed against the pound.
Thanks for the link; some interesting reading in there.
It still seems, to me, that European and Australian dealers need to work off slimmer margins - particularly when they aren't offering service or know-how that's any better to the customer than their counterparts in the US.
And you know, ultimately, how much do I even care about value add at all, when I can do my own research and usually have a better clue than sales assistants anyway, who are usually tasked with trying to know something about 50,000 different products in their store, meaning they are seldom a master of any of them.
In this market, guys such as myself will just continue to buy offshore. And I don't mean grey imports; I'll simply buy secondhand from the States, which is even cheaper again. Not an ideal way to support the company, however, I (like many others in my situation, I suspect), will not be used by local resellers who offer no value-add (even if we wanted it).
It still seems, to me, that European and Australian dealers need to work off slimmer margins - particularly when they aren't offering service or know-how that's any better to the customer than their counterparts in the US.
And you know, ultimately, how much do I even care about value add at all, when I can do my own research and usually have a better clue than sales assistants anyway, who are usually tasked with trying to know something about 50,000 different products in their store, meaning they are seldom a master of any of them.
In this market, guys such as myself will just continue to buy offshore. And I don't mean grey imports; I'll simply buy secondhand from the States, which is even cheaper again. Not an ideal way to support the company, however, I (like many others in my situation, I suspect), will not be used by local resellers who offer no value-add (even if we wanted it).
This brings up some interesting points. First, I try to buy used, which not only saves me money, but ups the dealer's bottom line since used gear is usually marked up higher. Nobody but him knows what he paid for it, unlike new gear from manufacturers. I got a used Traynor amp from an authorized dealer on eBay even though I was under the "Buy It Now Price" by $50, because I was the highest bidder and he wanted to move the amp.
Another way is to be satisfied with less. If you thin out your collection or buy less often, you can pay more for what you actually DO really play the most. If you find something that really suits you, the price becomes less of an issue later on down the line.
A lot of pro players are actually not beholden to any particular brand, in spite of what their sponsor's ads tell you. They got over the fantasy that only such-and-such a guitar brand would let them make music a long time ago. They will play anything they get can for free and is useable(which by Paul McCartney's own admission, is why he played a Rickenbacker bass. He expected that his position qualified him for free guitars, and the offers he got only backed it up. I'd probably be the same way in his shoes.), or gives them the biggest royalty/loyalty check, or anything that gets acceptable sound and build quality at the lowest cost and fits them personally. I decided to go that last approach myself, and discovered there were GREAT bargains out there. The best bass I own cost me $437 delivered from a reputable dealer. And I got a soft case with it, a really nice one. It was in such mint condition, that even the European battery tested almost new. It's better for me than a new G&L L-2000 that goes for about $1300 at the local dealer. The Tribute model of that same bass seemed just as good to me and at half the cost. Of course, all this is just my personal preference. But it proves my point.
One of the Real World Rules: For all those who just HAVE to have new gear of a certain brand, the dealer kind of has you "over a barrel" at times, and you just have to pay the piper or do without.
I learned how to work my way around that rule.
P.S. JH was right about most U.S. dealers charging too little to stay healthy and basically having to run a sweat shop for inept and disgruntled employees. Time to get a new type of business, I'd say. Most electronic retailers work on the same 2% profit margin, and it's BS to stay in such a business, from my point of view. If all the good workers are leaving the business, the owner should take a hint and move on as well.
Another way is to be satisfied with less. If you thin out your collection or buy less often, you can pay more for what you actually DO really play the most. If you find something that really suits you, the price becomes less of an issue later on down the line.
A lot of pro players are actually not beholden to any particular brand, in spite of what their sponsor's ads tell you. They got over the fantasy that only such-and-such a guitar brand would let them make music a long time ago. They will play anything they get can for free and is useable(which by Paul McCartney's own admission, is why he played a Rickenbacker bass. He expected that his position qualified him for free guitars, and the offers he got only backed it up. I'd probably be the same way in his shoes.), or gives them the biggest royalty/loyalty check, or anything that gets acceptable sound and build quality at the lowest cost and fits them personally. I decided to go that last approach myself, and discovered there were GREAT bargains out there. The best bass I own cost me $437 delivered from a reputable dealer. And I got a soft case with it, a really nice one. It was in such mint condition, that even the European battery tested almost new. It's better for me than a new G&L L-2000 that goes for about $1300 at the local dealer. The Tribute model of that same bass seemed just as good to me and at half the cost. Of course, all this is just my personal preference. But it proves my point.
One of the Real World Rules: For all those who just HAVE to have new gear of a certain brand, the dealer kind of has you "over a barrel" at times, and you just have to pay the piper or do without.
I learned how to work my way around that rule.
P.S. JH was right about most U.S. dealers charging too little to stay healthy and basically having to run a sweat shop for inept and disgruntled employees. Time to get a new type of business, I'd say. Most electronic retailers work on the same 2% profit margin, and it's BS to stay in such a business, from my point of view. If all the good workers are leaving the business, the owner should take a hint and move on as well.
Here's another snippet I want to throw into the conversation because this situation makes me so darn mad...
As many of you know, I want a 340. OK, at a "leading Australian retailer," a new 340 costs AUD$3,649.
Now, that's the equivalent of US$2,661 - for a guitar that is US$1,549 LIST - and invariably much cheaper - sometimes up to 40% lower than that.
This is why I'm hunting overseas for a 340. Local dealers can put whatever spin they like on it... but I'm no one's fool.
As many of you know, I want a 340. OK, at a "leading Australian retailer," a new 340 costs AUD$3,649.
Now, that's the equivalent of US$2,661 - for a guitar that is US$1,549 LIST - and invariably much cheaper - sometimes up to 40% lower than that.
This is why I'm hunting overseas for a 340. Local dealers can put whatever spin they like on it... but I'm no one's fool.
"As many of you know, I want a 340. OK, at a "leading Australian retailer," a new 340 costs AUD$3,649.
Now, that's the equivalent of US$2,661 - for a guitar that is US$1,549 LIST - and invariably much cheaper - sometimes up to 40% lower than that.
If you take AUSD 3649 takeoff 10% GSt then 50% markup ( 33.3%) that comes back to 2200 less 200 freight comes back to 2000. Less duty of ? say 10% = 1818 AUSD which converts to USD = 1322. Yup that seems high based on your figures..To make a rational comment you really need to know the Ric price to the dealers in US c/w Australia.
Typically , high margin low turnover and Low turnover high margin. If the price of Rics was dropped in Australia would the volume increase sufficiently to offset the margin reduction and more? If there is no increase in sales to increase the profit to a point higher than it was before then why reduce the price?
john
Now, that's the equivalent of US$2,661 - for a guitar that is US$1,549 LIST - and invariably much cheaper - sometimes up to 40% lower than that.
If you take AUSD 3649 takeoff 10% GSt then 50% markup ( 33.3%) that comes back to 2200 less 200 freight comes back to 2000. Less duty of ? say 10% = 1818 AUSD which converts to USD = 1322. Yup that seems high based on your figures..To make a rational comment you really need to know the Ric price to the dealers in US c/w Australia.
Typically , high margin low turnover and Low turnover high margin. If the price of Rics was dropped in Australia would the volume increase sufficiently to offset the margin reduction and more? If there is no increase in sales to increase the profit to a point higher than it was before then why reduce the price?
john
The Australian distributor is free to charge whatever price he so chooses- that's entirely his business and he's the one who lives with the decision. I'm not being facetious at all but right now his only complaint is that we don't send him enough goods, fast enough.
This is the free market system at work, plain and simple. For the record, all of our distributors purchase from us at the same price (as do ALL of our dealers).
As was said, one workable solution is to buy used guitars from the U.S. and I like it! That's a used guitar that's no longer available here that must be replaced with a new one and we make even more money on U.S. dealers than we do with overseas distributors.
This is the free market system at work, plain and simple. For the record, all of our distributors purchase from us at the same price (as do ALL of our dealers).
As was said, one workable solution is to buy used guitars from the U.S. and I like it! That's a used guitar that's no longer available here that must be replaced with a new one and we make even more money on U.S. dealers than we do with overseas distributors.
John Hall wrote "I'm not being facetious at all but right now his only complaint is that we don't send him enough goods, fast enough.
This is the free market system at work, plain and simple. For the record, all of our distributors purchase from us at the same price (as do ALL of our dealers). "
There is the answer.. The stock sells...
John
This is the free market system at work, plain and simple. For the record, all of our distributors purchase from us at the same price (as do ALL of our dealers). "
There is the answer.. The stock sells...
John
Two questions:
(i) Isn't a free market one where there aren't restrictions placed on businesses?
(ii) If there really is parity between countries, why would restrictions be necessary in the first place?
<i>As was said, one workable solution is to buy used guitars from the U.S. and I like it!</i>
Yup; and that's what I'm doing. I'd love to buy new from a US vendor, but secondhand is the next best thing to me.
(And, for the record, the local store I was quoting isn't the Aussie distributor; just wanted to clear that up before an assumption becomes fact in the thread
)
(i) Isn't a free market one where there aren't restrictions placed on businesses?
(ii) If there really is parity between countries, why would restrictions be necessary in the first place?
<i>As was said, one workable solution is to buy used guitars from the U.S. and I like it!</i>
Yup; and that's what I'm doing. I'd love to buy new from a US vendor, but secondhand is the next best thing to me.
(And, for the record, the local store I was quoting isn't the Aussie distributor; just wanted to clear that up before an assumption becomes fact in the thread
)There's all kinds of restrictions on business, i.e. price fixing, product dumping, and territorial exclusives.
The first two, as examples of many, are imposed by governments, while the second is a great example of how a free market business can set its own policies. In this case it's a policy to allow a distributor the right to recoup costs for promotion, warranty, and other local costs, such as the environmental fees in the E.C.
Technically it may be illegal to import a product without the manufacturer's permission but it's rarely enforced and the requirements to insure compliance vary somewhat from country to country. The Roland v. Piens Music Planet case in the U.S. is a precursor to more restrictions like this.
The first two, as examples of many, are imposed by governments, while the second is a great example of how a free market business can set its own policies. In this case it's a policy to allow a distributor the right to recoup costs for promotion, warranty, and other local costs, such as the environmental fees in the E.C.
Technically it may be illegal to import a product without the manufacturer's permission but it's rarely enforced and the requirements to insure compliance vary somewhat from country to country. The Roland v. Piens Music Planet case in the U.S. is a precursor to more restrictions like this.