Jim, thank you very much for your very detailed answer. And thank you to all who have responded to me. I have always received good advice and tips from this site.
I just wanted to know a little bit more about that pickup and the CS bass. My CS sounds wonderful and I have no complaints at all.
And yes, (no pun intened) a LOT of tone does in fact, come from the individual players hands.
That was told to me some 28 years ago by my first teacher. I'll never forget him telling me that 99% of Chris Squire's tone comes from his hands. I fully understanded that and have approached playing other bands music that way. I have tried, and have had much sucess with getting right into the origional playing attitude of any song that I have wanted to learn and play. I can cop Geddy Lee's tone and then go right to Chris Squire's sound if I want to. It does help to have the right strings and amps/settings but it really boils down to the hands.
Nice to be back!
Horseshoe pickup on the CS Bass
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just_bassics
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Re: Horseshoe pickup on the CS Bass
It's nice to see you back, Tom. And there are many here who could go much further than my answer, both in the technical and performance aspect. But that's how I came to understand it.
For a little idea as to where Chris Squire's tone and power comes from, just look at that picture where he's holding my 4001S, compare his hands to the bridge pickup for a reference... he has huge, powerful hands and a great sense of musicality. I'm surprised that he hasn't completely worn that old Ric out!
For a little idea as to where Chris Squire's tone and power comes from, just look at that picture where he's holding my 4001S, compare his hands to the bridge pickup for a reference... he has huge, powerful hands and a great sense of musicality. I'm surprised that he hasn't completely worn that old Ric out!
Re: Horseshoe pickup on the CS Bass
Bang!cassius987 wrote: Finally, don't shoot me, but on the YT video for the RM1999 I thought the HS sounded lackluster compared to the Toaster.
Well, I do demonstrate in the video that the toaster is king! The HS is more like a slave pickup rather than the driving force, and mine does not even have the cap (probably lost in the 70s).
Eden.
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cassius987
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Re: Horseshoe pickup on the CS Bass
Regardless, it's a fantastic, informative video. Nice work.weemac wrote:Bang!cassius987 wrote: Finally, don't shoot me, but on the YT video for the RM1999 I thought the HS sounded lackluster compared to the Toaster.
Well, I do demonstrate in the video that the toaster is king! The HS is more like a slave pickup rather than the driving force, and mine does not even have the cap (probably lost in the 70s).
Eden.
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rickenbrother
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Re: Horseshoe pickup on the CS Bass
Cool vid, Eden. I enjoyed that!weemac wrote: Most of the sound resides in the neck pickup as demonstrated here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx7Zb7xa0RU
Eden.
The JETGLO finish name should be officially changed to JETGLO ROCKS!
Re: Horseshoe pickup on the CS Bass
Jim, you have NO IDEA!just_bassics wrote: I've never played Chris's however, and if I ever do, well, I'm told by many that RAS will strike hard (Tony!)
I think there is some kind of spell on those 1999's !
I can't wait for the day to play Andy's RM again.
I used to sit here and say to myself "ah, they can't be THAT much different" or "I'd NEVER pay those prices for one" on and on...but what a humbling experience it is to actually play one!
Vincent G. had it right all along. IF this thing felt like any other RIC I could easily forget it...but Andy brought some fantastic bass with him, ANY one of which I considered myself lucky to just play. But after playing his RM, I had been bitten, HARD.
I also have a HS & Toaster on my 2006 Monty, and it has one HECK of a grind to it. The factory toaster is in the 1" position and the HS was a Sergio rewind and it is HOT HOT HOT. Each having their own sound and feel.
Great discussion everyone, loved the video Eden! What I love about RICs is that no two are exactly alike. Many have come close & I don't profess to understand why my CS just has a sound of it's own. Nothing like my V63 or my old C64S. They had the same strings and the same hack playing them (ME) and yet, sounded NOTHING alike.
I don't know if it's the Vermilion fingerboard, the way the HS & TOASTER on my CS are wound, the special sentimental value I put on it, the man it makes me think of when I play it....but it is just more than the total of it's parts to me.
Re: Horseshoe pickup on the CS Bass
I have found some four track demos that I did bass lines on for a songwriter friend of mine using the RM DA24.
The sound is really clear with just a direct from a transistor preamp and I will try and transfer them to digital when I get a chance.
I can Isolate the RM on these whereas all my other recordings of it are bedded in the mix with keys and vocals etc.
What is noticeable is that even with a re-issue HS on it the bass sounds different to my ears from my CS and it also sounds like every RM I have heard.
I think the aluminium bridge might have some influence on the tones transfered through the body and pickups.
If I ever get one for my white CS I will know for sure.
The sound is really clear with just a direct from a transistor preamp and I will try and transfer them to digital when I get a chance.
I can Isolate the RM on these whereas all my other recordings of it are bedded in the mix with keys and vocals etc.
What is noticeable is that even with a re-issue HS on it the bass sounds different to my ears from my CS and it also sounds like every RM I have heard.
I think the aluminium bridge might have some influence on the tones transfered through the body and pickups.
If I ever get one for my white CS I will know for sure.
Re: Horseshoe pickup on the CS Bass
Eden, cool video indeed. First time I have heard a demo of an RM1999 or early 60s 4001. Thank you so much.
Magnetic horseys have a way of sensing the plucked string that gives the tone a fullness or roundness that a higain, toaster, or the RIHS just doesn't have. Jim described what happens as I also understand it. I have both RIHS and magnet shoed pickups, and there is a difference to the tone/sound beyond the differences the windings have.
My take on why these old Ricks sound as they do is because there is a lot less windings to their coils. This is one reason and this gives them the clarity all commented on. The old pups were wound to the 5-6k range which gives an even more pure sound then the current 7.4k toasters. Of course another big difference is the wood and age. Construction of the neck is another.
A comparison of all the different bridge pickups would only be valid using the same bass. Then decisions would need to be made on the electronics used - pot values, bridge cap, etc. Comparing the RM1999 magnetic to the V63, CS, and C64 pups would be unproductive as the V63, CS, and C64 all share the same pickup characteristics - non-magnetic shoes, alnico5 rod magnets, and around 11.6k coil windings.
It would be interesting to put an RIHS into an RM..... but I wouldn't do it to mine if I owned one.
Comments more than welcome!
Magnetic horseys have a way of sensing the plucked string that gives the tone a fullness or roundness that a higain, toaster, or the RIHS just doesn't have. Jim described what happens as I also understand it. I have both RIHS and magnet shoed pickups, and there is a difference to the tone/sound beyond the differences the windings have.
My take on why these old Ricks sound as they do is because there is a lot less windings to their coils. This is one reason and this gives them the clarity all commented on. The old pups were wound to the 5-6k range which gives an even more pure sound then the current 7.4k toasters. Of course another big difference is the wood and age. Construction of the neck is another.
A comparison of all the different bridge pickups would only be valid using the same bass. Then decisions would need to be made on the electronics used - pot values, bridge cap, etc. Comparing the RM1999 magnetic to the V63, CS, and C64 pups would be unproductive as the V63, CS, and C64 all share the same pickup characteristics - non-magnetic shoes, alnico5 rod magnets, and around 11.6k coil windings.
It would be interesting to put an RIHS into an RM..... but I wouldn't do it to mine if I owned one.
Comments more than welcome!
Re: Horseshoe pickup on the CS Bass
eden,the video is a treat,reallly great sounding rm there,and thanks for sneaking in "open your eyes" amongst the "olde favorites". i love that riff.....
Re: Horseshoe pickup on the CS Bass
It's a pity I bungled it.......woodyng wrote:and thanks for sneaking in "open your eyes" amongst the "olde favorites". i love that riff.....
Perhaps I should do some more RM stuff....
Eden.
Re: Horseshoe pickup on the CS Bass
+1weemac wrote:It's a pity I bungled it.......woodyng wrote:and thanks for sneaking in "open your eyes" amongst the "olde favorites". i love that riff.....
Perhaps I should do some more RM stuff....
Eden.
I didn't think 'bungled' I thought it was poetic license being used....
cool video Eden... I think more RM stuff would be cool.
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modelcitizen
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Re: Horseshoe pickup on the CS Bass
i didn't think that the horsey could be removed, leaving the p/up there by itsself?
i've removed the plastic covers from the bridge p/up on all my Rics, just seemed to get in the way. but the horsey for some reason feels good as a palm rest...maybe 'cause it's solid metal rather than flimsy chromed plastic (and what the hell are Ric thinking charging $20USD for a replacement?!).
would magnetising the horsey of a "new"/RI horseshoe p/up alter the sound in any beneficial way? (assuming that the metal can hold sufficient magnetism for some time)
i've removed the plastic covers from the bridge p/up on all my Rics, just seemed to get in the way. but the horsey for some reason feels good as a palm rest...maybe 'cause it's solid metal rather than flimsy chromed plastic (and what the hell are Ric thinking charging $20USD for a replacement?!).
would magnetising the horsey of a "new"/RI horseshoe p/up alter the sound in any beneficial way? (assuming that the metal can hold sufficient magnetism for some time)
Re: Horseshoe pickup on the CS Bass
Neil, taking the shoes off a magnetic shoe horsey renders the output almost to nothing. Taking the shoes off a RIHS horsey removes some shielding, but because the poles are the magnets, you still get full output. RIHS shoes will not hold a charge.
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modelcitizen
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Re: Horseshoe pickup on the CS Bass
hmmmm...so has anyone thought of fabricating a high-carbon steel horsey "shoe" that can hold some magnetism?
how would this change the overall tone? (if at all...not looking for more gain, just the mad scientist in me working overtime )
how would this change the overall tone? (if at all...not looking for more gain, just the mad scientist in me working overtime
)Re: Horseshoe pickup on the CS Bass
Neil, I know of two who went to all the trouble to fabricate magnetic shoes and were contacted by RIC legal.
A magnetic horsey sounds slightly different from a RIHS for at least two reasons I can think of right off. The coils are wound differently. RIHS is machine wound and around 12k, and the magnetic shoe coils were wound by hand (scattered) and between 5k and about 6.5k depending on the year.
The magnetic shoes sense string motion in all planes and since a string vibrates in a figure 8 pattern it will always be sensed and will make the notes sound rounded or "fatter" - in basic sound, not bassier tone. The RIHS sounds almost identical to a current higain.
A magnetic horsey sounds slightly different from a RIHS for at least two reasons I can think of right off. The coils are wound differently. RIHS is machine wound and around 12k, and the magnetic shoe coils were wound by hand (scattered) and between 5k and about 6.5k depending on the year.
The magnetic shoes sense string motion in all planes and since a string vibrates in a figure 8 pattern it will always be sensed and will make the notes sound rounded or "fatter" - in basic sound, not bassier tone. The RIHS sounds almost identical to a current higain.