Ric-o-Sound Problem

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Nudger
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Ric-o-Sound Problem

Post by Nudger »

Hi all
Newbee here, Having issue with a guitar build and thought you guys could put me on the right track..

Just built a stereo guitar.
Two separate SS circuits hitting one of these
Image
Its a Rick-o-Sound jack from Rickysounds.

The stereo jack socket is doing as it should,Two independent circuits go out through a stereo cable that splits to two mono leads. One to each amp.
When I use the mono jack socket "mono lead one amplifier" there is a noticeable drop in volume. As if some frequency has dropped out?
Is this common with Ric-o-Sound?

Really bugging me where I could have gone wrong as its such a simple setup..just two lives,One for each circuit.

Thanks in advance
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jdogric12
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Re: Ric-o-Sound Problem

Post by jdogric12 »

No, that's a problem. What schematic did you go off of?
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Re: Ric-o-Sound Problem

Post by Nudger »

Didnt have a schematic..
Just two SS circuits, tone + vol for each.."done this bit many times" hitting the ric-o-jack system. Wondering if ive tried to do something that is impossible?

Could it be that two separate circuits converging on one mono jack will cancel out some frequency?
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jps
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Re: Ric-o-Sound Problem

Post by jps »

Nudger wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 10:54 am Didnt have a schematic..
Just two SS circuits
What's a SS circuit?
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espidog
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Re: Ric-o-Sound Problem

Post by espidog »

jps wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:43 pm What's a SS circuit?
Good question. That phrase has me foxed too.

To address the OP's problem: if you're getting a volume drop when the outputs of the two pickups are combined into mono, it could be

1. Comb filtering (a sum-and-difference effect that happens whenever you combine the outputs of two pickups in different physical positions)

or the more likely case:

2. The two pups are out of phase with each other. Even if you've got the +ve and -ve wires connected the correct way round on both, it could be that the pups are wound in opposition to each other.
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Nudger
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Re: Ric-o-Sound Problem

Post by Nudger »

espidog wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 2:27 am
jps wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:43 pm What's a SS circuit?
Good question. That phrase has me foxed too.

To address the OP's problem: if you're getting a volume drop when the outputs of the two pickups are combined into mono, it could be

1. Comb filtering (a sum-and-difference effect that happens whenever you combine the outputs of two pickups in different physical positions)

or the more likely case:

2. The two pups are out of phase with each other. Even if you've got the +ve and -ve wires connected the correct way round on both, it could be that the pups are wound in opposition to each other.
Thanks for the input espidog.
Dont think its the 2nd diagnosis, Tried these identical pups every which way.. I believe direction and polarity is right as when the circuits are split "stereo Jack socket" they are in phase and work perfectly. Gonna swat up on this comb filtering
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Re: Ric-o-Sound Problem

Post by Nudger »

jps wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:43 pm
Nudger wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 10:54 am Didnt have a schematic..
Just two SS circuits
What's a SS circuit?
SS = two Single coils As opposed to say.. HS = humbucker + Single coil, HH = Two Humbuckers
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espidog
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Re: Ric-o-Sound Problem

Post by espidog »

Nudger wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 11:35 am Thanks for the input espidog.
Dont think its the 2nd diagnosis, Tried these identical pups every which way.. I believe direction and polarity is right as when the circuits are split "stereo Jack socket" they are in phase and work perfectly.
If you haven't already done so, one way to confirm this beyond doubt is to feed the two outputs into a computer and make a stereo recording of you playing a few notes, using a waveform-display recording suite like (for example) Audacity. Once you've got your audio clip onscreen, zoom in to a small section of the waveform and you'll be able to see whether the waveforms are rising and falling in unison or (if the pups are out of phase) in opposition to each other.

But yes, comb filtering is a strong possibility. Its character is heavily dependent on the distance between the two pups.
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Re: Ric-o-Sound Problem

Post by Nudger »

But yes, comb filtering is a strong possibility. Its character is heavily dependent on the distance between the two pups.
[/quote]

This is very interesting "giving me hope"
Ive got the circuits running bass halve and treble halve of split pickups on separate circuits "top diagram"
Could the proximity of the two separate circuits be the problem?

Should I rewire in a more conventional way "bass pickup halves on one neck pickups on the other" bottom diagram
Image
Image
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espidog
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Re: Ric-o-Sound Problem

Post by espidog »

Thanks for the photos and the explanation of what you've been doing with this guitar.

Wow. That is a fascinating way to wire the circuits - and, if you don't mind me saying - downright weird! :mrgreen: Leaving aside the volume drop/comb filtering considerations for a minute: wiring the upper pups as one channel and the lower pups as the other channel is pretty pointless, as it offers the musician no useful way of switching/blending between neck and bridge pups for tonal variation. Effectively, it just creates a single, monolithic, tonally fixed pickup for each set of 3 strings. The other method (bridge pups together / neck pups together) is the more versatile - and thus orthodox - way of doing things.

What's really baffling, though, is that with the pups wired the way they are, combining the outputs of the two channels cannot introduce any further comb filtering effect, because each channel is handling the signal from its own separate set of 3 strings - so the volume drop you're getting CANNOT be down to comb filtering. Furthermore, it cannot be down to out-of-phase pickups either. It wouldn't matter a jot if the signal from the E A D strings was in opposite polarity to the signal from the G B E strings.

So I'm left scratching my head as to why you're getting this volume drop. There is, of course, the inevitable fact that when you common up the outputs of two pickups (or two blocks of pups) in parallel to get a mono output, the effective impedance of the combined pups is halved, but that would still happen if you had the guitar wired as per method 2.

Honest to god...I'm stumped!
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Re: Ric-o-Sound Problem

Post by Nudger »

espidog wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 4:48 pm Thanks for the photos and the explanation of what you've been doing with this guitar.

For versitile pickup combinations each pickup halve has its own switch.. could this be a problem? Grasping at straws now :lol:
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espidog
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Re: Ric-o-Sound Problem

Post by espidog »

So each set of neck+bridge pups has its own neck/both/bridge switch? Well that would help with tonal choices. :)

Provided the switches are correctly connected (I'm sure they will be), the presence of the switches would make no difference re. the volume drop.

My money's on the impedance halving when it's all paralleled into mono. That's the best I've got.
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Re: Ric-o-Sound Problem

Post by Nudger »

espidog wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 4:48 pm

There is, of course, the inevitable fact that when you common up the outputs of two pickups (or two blocks of pups) in parallel to get a mono output, the effective impedance of the combined pups is halved, but that would still happen if you had the guitar wired as per method 2.


This makes me think im trying to achieve something that is physically impossible.. After all never found a build trying to do quite what I was.
Leaves me with a couple of options.
1 Wire both circuits to two separtate mono jack sockets "Stereo guitar only"
2 Wire as "Mono guitar"
Luckily I already have a spare single jack control plate.

Real puzzler? So will a Rickenbacker with ric-o-sound have a drop in impedance/volume when using the mono output?

Thanks again for helping me work this out :wink:
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espidog
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Re: Ric-o-Sound Problem

Post by espidog »

Nudger wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:48 am Leaves me with a couple of options.
1 Wire both circuits to two separate mono jack sockets "Stereo guitar only"
Electrically that would be exactly the same as using the present stereo jack socket and mono jack socket, only without the convenience of having the choice.
Nudger wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:48 am 2 Wire as "Mono guitar"
Luckily I already have a spare single jack control plate.
Likewise, that would be just like using the present mono jack socket, but without the choice to go stereo if you wanted to.
Nudger wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:48 amSo will a Rickenbacker with ric-o-sound have a drop in impedance/volume when using the mono output?
First off, there's nothing clever or special about "Ric-o-sound" - it's just a brand name for the very ordinary business of feeding each pickup to its own separate output - i.e. stereo. A Rickenbacker guitar connected in mono will certainly have the halving of impedence (when both pickups are in use). The loss of volume thing is very dependent on the distances between the pickups and how the signals interact. On my 4003, for example, with a mono jack plugged in, if I flip the pickup selector switch, both the neck-only and bridge-only positions have a more pokey, in-yer-face "loudness" than if the selector switch is on "both". The sound with both pups on is kinda softer, more civilised, with less upper midrange "bark". This is partly down to the impedence drop and partly the comb filtering.

This is why, historically, on Rickenbacker basses there used to be a .0047uF capacitor in the +ve output from the bridge pickup, effectively filtering out a bunch of lower frequencies from that pup. This prevented the low-to-mid frequencies from the bridge pup from interfering with the low-to-mids from the neck pup (via comb filtering). Result: you get the fat bottom end from the neck pup and the treble bite from the bridge pup. Nowadays, that capacitor is back, but you can switch it in/out as you wish. RIC call it the "Vintage tone switch".

This is on a bass, though. I don't know whether a similar idea has ever been implemented on a 6-string guitar - probably not, because the signals are in a higher frequency range than on a bass.

I'm intrigued to know just how bad this volume drop is. Is there any way you could make a short demo recording of the guitar, using the mono jack and switching between single channels and both together? Then upload it to - say - Soundcloud and post a link?
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Re: Ric-o-Sound Problem

Post by espidog »

espidog wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:25 am
Nudger wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:48 am Leaves me with a couple of options.
1 Wire both circuits to two separate mono jack sockets "Stereo guitar only"
Electrically that would be exactly the same as using the present stereo jack socket and mono jack socket, only without the convenience of having the choice to go mono.
Nudger wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:48 am 2 Wire as "Mono guitar"
Luckily I already have a spare single jack control plate.
Likewise, that would be just like using the present mono jack socket, but without the choice to go stereo if you wanted to.
Nudger wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:48 amSo will a Rickenbacker with ric-o-sound have a drop in impedance/volume when using the mono output?
First off, there's nothing clever or special about "Ric-o-sound" - it's just a brand name for the very ordinary business of feeding each pickup to its own separate output - i.e. stereo. A Rickenbacker guitar connected in mono will certainly have the halving of impedence (when both pickups are in use). The loss of volume thing is very dependent on the distances between the pickups and how the signals interact. On my 4003, for example, with a mono jack plugged in, if I flip the pickup selector switch, both the neck-only and bridge-only positions have a more pokey, in-yer-face "loudness" than if the selector switch is on "both". The sound with both pups on is kinda softer, more civilised, with less upper midrange "bark". This is partly down to the impedence drop and partly the comb filtering.

This is why, historically, on Rickenbacker basses there used to be a .0047uF capacitor in the +ve output from the bridge pickup, effectively filtering out a bunch of lower frequencies from that pup. This prevented the low-to-mid frequencies from the bridge pup from interfering with the low-to-mids from the neck pup (via comb filtering). Result: you get the fat bottom end from the neck pup and the treble bite from the bridge pup. Nowadays, that capacitor is back, but you can switch it in/out as you wish. RIC call it the "Vintage tone switch".

This is on a bass, though. I don't know whether a similar idea has ever been implemented on a 6-string guitar - probably not, because the signals are in a higher frequency range than on a bass.

I'm intrigued to know just how bad this volume drop is. Is there any way you could make a short demo recording of the guitar, using the mono jack and switching between single channels and both together? Then upload it to - say - Soundcloud and post a link?
2004 4003 JetGlo
Epiphone Jack Casady
Ovation Magnum 1
Mania VTB-4BS
Dean Stylist w/ John Birch Magnum II pups
Yamaha BB414
Trace Elliot VA350/GP11 Mk1
Peavey TB-Raxx
2 BFM Omni 10.5 crossfire cabs
Roland Bass Cube 100
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