What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

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Bighouse
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Re: What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

Post by Bighouse »

ram wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:31 pm Great story Robert. If the nut string thing doesn't would out you might just need a little fret dressing, being that it was out of kilter for so long... goof luck with it!
“fret dressing”? Oh, fun- a new term and “Rickenbacker Instrument Engagement Opportunity” for me to investigate!

I’m wondering about how my current strings (i.e. after-market) are sitting in the nut grooves. It would be nice to know, and then to compare, the distance from the underside of each string to the fretboard just at the nut. Whether they sit at the wrong height might have a lot to do with the groove sizes in the nut as created for the original half-round string diameters. I no longer have my original strings- so if anyone has an early 80’s 4001 and a micrometer/calipers and wants to measure and share their findings, that would be great.
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ram
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Re: What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

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A fret dressing is - "a fret dress is a process of leveling frets with some type of flat, straight abrasive surface in order to eliminate string buzzing." That is as good as any description. What brand of strings do you have on it? I believe the factory sets are 45w 55w 75w 105w. If you have anything close to that you should be good. I used D'Adderio EXL 170s (45w 65w 80w 100w)for decades on my 4001 with no issues.
The only thing we can perceive are our perceptions - George Berkeley
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Bighouse
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Re: What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

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ram wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:48 pm A fret dressing is - "a fret dress is a process of leveling frets with some type of flat, straight abrasive surface in order to eliminate string buzzing." That is as good as any description. What brand of strings do you have on it? I believe the factory sets are 45w 55w 75w 105w. If you have anything close to that you should be good. I used D'Adderio EXL 170s (45w 65w 80w 100w)for decades on my 4001 with no issues.
I'm using D'Addario XL round-wounds. I just watched a YouTube video showing a guitar maker leveling and dressing some frets on a guitar. Seems easy enough. It does look like there are some specialized tools to be had to do it well. The file that creates the crown on the frets, for instance, and a trapezoidal tool that spans three frets to check for proud frets. I'll have to look around.

Does anyone have any recommendations for those kind of fret-dressing tools for a 4001? I can tell that my fourth fret is high, likely from the third being worn down.
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ram
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Re: What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

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The old way of checking ... fret the string on the third fret. while holding the string at the 3rd fret there should be just a little space between the string the the first fret. about the thickness of a piece of paper. This needs to be done after the neck is flat. Not a bad indicator as to nut height health.
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Re: What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

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Because I told you before- oh, you can't do that.
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Dirk
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Re: What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

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Sounds like the original folks didn't understand the way the classic rods function. Also since the rods are not normally glued in place, if you need more threads, just slide the whole rod toward the adjustment end. Now you have more threads. :)
Classic rods are to hold the neck in place not tighten and loosen to adjust.

Level first, getting the tops nice and flat, then it's time to crown.

Many different tools to do that here too:
https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-a ... -crowning/

Then it's time to work on dressing the ends.

You've learned some very useful tasks for the future too.
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Bighouse
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Re: What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

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Dirk wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:48 am Sounds like the original folks didn't understand the way the classic rods function. Also since the rods are not normally glued in place, if you need more threads, just slide the whole rod toward the adjustment end. Now you have more threads. :)
Classic rods are to hold the neck in place not tighten and loosen to adjust.

Level first, getting the tops nice and flat, then it's time to crown.

Many different tools to do that here too:
https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-a ... -crowning/

Then it's time to work on dressing the ends.

You've learned some very useful tasks for the future too.
Yea, I’m fairly adept at using tools, as a woodworker/architect, so I’m rather looking forward to the experience and redeeming my 4001. It’ll be wonderful restoring the playability of the instrument back to factory-intended playability.

I don’t much care for the stew Mac tools offerings- they seem over-priced and just of average quality. Instead, I think I will be purchasing my needed tools and supplies from here: https://www.crimsonguitars.com/collections/fretting
Because I told you before- oh, you can't do that.
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Dirk
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Re: What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

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Another excellent source of tools and such is of course:
https://www.lmii.com/
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Bighouse
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Re: What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

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Dirk wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 9:09 am Another excellent source of tools and such is of course:
https://www.lmii.com/
I’ve got all the tools and supplies I need to do the work ordered. Unfortunately, due to issues occurring in Europe, they are facing delays in receiving materials from suppliers- so my order shipment is being delayed until some sandpaper supplies arrive within this next week.

I’m going to replace my original 1982 tailpiece with the new Version 2 tailpiece anyway- and will be ordering it later this week. I don’t really want to deform the New Optima RB Flatwounds with the current tailpiece- so timing wise everything should fall in place in due time.
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lumgimfong
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Re: What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

Post by lumgimfong »

So how flat is flat? Business card? Piece of paper? I think Joeys bass notes mentioned a folded piece of paper? And just a tiny movement and a "tink" sound when tapping the string at the 9th fret with first and last frets depressed?
I'm experimenting and trying to get my 4003 straight. But it is stopping short and I don't want to turn the rods too hard. Will give it some time to adjust to the new turns first.
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Dirk
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Re: What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

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A true straight edge is the best way to determine "straight".
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Re: What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

Post by lumgimfong »

I got it flat now. As in folded piece of paper just makes it in between top of 9th fret and bottom of e and g strings with first and last frets depressed.
Wife held the 4003 body down on desk top while its neck hung in the air and I very gently pressed with index finger on its 1st fret to help neck bend back a little (I could see it flex back a little). Then I snugged both nuts. Resulting action was one 64th lower (6/64ths at 17th fret). We'll see how it sets over the course of the next day. Fret buzz is no worse than usual and the low E now growls when I dig in. Never got that sound out of this 4003 before. This is a new sound. I hope it works out.

Interesting to think about it in theory. Maybe this is true, maybe not, given same actions settings:
Adding relief may make it harder to play because of the resulting bow in the neck puts the strings further from middle of neck even though action may be measured the sam e at 17th fret.
Flat neck makes the distance more uniform along the neck, cuz no bow. So in theory should feel easier to play??

Maybe I should start measuring action from the 12th fret. 17th is the old fender way but this is not a fender.
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Dirk
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Re: What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

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If you're getting the "growl" when you dig in the low E, it's how it should be. Congrats!
I think of the sound as more of grunt than a growl, but maybe that's just me again.

12 fret is useful if the neck is flat. Every instrument is different, so exact measurements don't have the same meaning.
Well at least to me they don't, I tend to go by feel setting my action. Saddle height makes a change, bridge height makes a change, and even the nut end can affect things.
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Re: What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

Post by lumgimfong »

I am getting 3/32 at the 12th fret for action, if that is "normal". I would not want to go higher.

The a, d, and g strings buzz sometimes but nothing bad. Might raise the action a 1/4 turn and see if that helps.
Though in a way, the buzz is more like a "rasp" that makes it sound a little distorted when playing clean, so I might just keep it this way and see how it works out.
Nut height is perfect. Neck is not twisted.
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Re: What is this "flat neck" business for Ric basses?

Post by lumgimfong »

It's getting tinny sounding buzzing so much.
I took it to my tech and he showed me it has high frets on a few. So hopefully he will get it taken care of and I can get it low action and flat without the buzz.
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