Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

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henry5
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Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

Post by henry5 »

Following on from another thread, from what I’ve seen Jon Camp typically played in stereo (please correct me if I’m wrong). Does anyone know if his basses typically had the cap in? I know they would have come like that but does anyone know if he removed them or kept them in?
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iiipopes
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Re: Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

Post by iiipopes »

I don't know the either/or. On my 4002 and my guitars, I installed a push-pull to have either on demand.
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ram
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Re: Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

Post by ram »

What Scott said. Push/Pull.... gives you both ....
The only thing we can perceive are our perceptions - George Berkeley
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jps
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Re: Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

Post by jps »

He installed a mini toggle switch to switch the cap in or out.
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henry5
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Re: Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

Post by henry5 »

Thanks Jeff, had a feeling you’d know. 😉😁
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JackTheRipper
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Re: Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

Post by JackTheRipper »

FWIW, I haven't noticed *much* difference on my 4003 with the cap in or out while in ric-o-sound mode. Very subtle.

YMMV,

--jack
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jps
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Re: Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

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JackTheRipper wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 5:16 pm FWIW, I haven't noticed *much* difference on my 4003 with the cap in or out while in ric-o-sound mode. Very subtle.

YMMV,

--jack
Even when you solo the bridge pickup?
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henry5
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Re: Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

Post by henry5 »

In my experience the effect of removing the cap varies from bass to bass. I’ve just done a first and actually replaced the cap in my ‘72 Azure, which is currently wearing TI flats (I normally bypass or remove the caps in my Rics). Possibly because of the flats, I feel it’s opened up the sound a bit. It’s arguably clearer and sweeter.
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Isaac
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Re: Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

Post by Isaac »

Unless I'm wrong, the cap is always the same value. The pickups, however, can vary quite a bit on how hot they're wound. As a result, the effect the cap has on the sound will vary quite a bit, too.

Please excuse me while I ramble on a bit.

The pickup is mainly an inductor. The wire used contributes resistance. Putting a capacitor in series creates an RLC filter.

An LC filter with no resistance will pass a single frequency. Adding resistance spreads out the effect, so the band is not as deep but is wider. A hotter pickup will have a higher inductance and resistance.

Higher inductance will lower the center frequency of the bandpass. The higher resistance damps the effect, passing a wider band but reducing the effect.

Not sure where I'm going with this, and I have to go to band practice, but part of my point (to the extent that I have one!) is that, for a given cap value, the result with different pickups will be different. The center frequency might shift as much as an octave from a 7K pickup to a 14K pickup.

Anyway, gotta go. Somebody please correct me if I'm totally out to lunch on this!
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jps
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Re: Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

Post by jps »

Isaac wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 2:17 pm Unless I'm wrong, the cap is always the same value. The pickups, however, can vary quite a bit on how hot they're wound. As a result, the effect the cap has on the sound will vary quite a bit, too.

Please excuse me while I ramble on a bit.

The pickup is mainly an inductor. The wire used contributes resistance. Putting a capacitor in series creates an RLC filter.

An LC filter with no resistance will pass a single frequency. Adding resistance spreads out the effect, so the band is not as deep but is wider. A hotter pickup will have a higher inductance and resistance.

Higher inductance will lower the center frequency of the bandpass. The higher resistance damps the effect, passing a wider band but reducing the effect.

Not sure where I'm going with this, and I have to go to band practice, but part of my point (to the extent that I have one!) is that, for a given cap value, the result with different pickups will be different. The center frequency might shift as much as an octave from a 7K pickup to a 14K pickup.

Anyway, gotta go. Somebody please correct me if I'm totally out to lunch on this!
I figured there had to be a difference in the knee of the filter between the different values of the pickups (toasters and hi-gain pickup), and given the different winding values even within each type depending on how much winding is on the bobbins.

Any ideas, generally, of what value cap would produce a similar effect on the HPF with a modern hi-gain compared to, say, a modern 7.4K scatterwound toaster.
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Isaac
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Re: Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

Post by Isaac »

jps wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:55 pmI figured there had to be a difference in the knee of the filter between the different values of the pickups (toasters and hi-gain pickup), and given the different winding values even within each type depending on how much winding is on the bobbins.

Any ideas, generally, of what value cap would produce a similar effect on the HPF with a modern hi-gain compared to, say, a modern 7.4K scatterwound toaster.
Might be able to make a guess, based on the DC resistances, but we'd need the inductance of the coil to be more exact.

The question is, what kind of response would you prefer? What pickup gives you the sound you want with the cap in the circuit? And what is its DC resistance?
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iiipopes
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Re: Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

Post by iiipopes »

To elaborate on the above:

1) The value of the cap is the same for all Rickenbacker guitars and 4001/3 basses that have the inline cap: .0047 microfarads. On my 4002, as set forth in the factory wiring diagram, the inline cap is a .01 on each pickup. This caused some comb filtering problems that probably weren't apparent at the time the model was developed. So I put the in/out push-pull on the neck pickup with push as the bypass and pull as the in-line cap engaged, just like the switch on current manufacture instruments.

2) The RIC 4002 humbuckers measure @ 8 kohms on the neck and @ 7.5 kohms on the bridge. The lesser bridge pickup DC resistance is due to the interleafed windings that go to the Low-Z XLR output jack with about 700 ohms. For me, yes, on my bass, it makes a significant difference. Running the neck pickup straight adds noticeable low end and gets rid of the comb filtering, bordering on phasing, that happens when both pickups have their respective .01 in line capacitors engaged.

3) Because the bridge pickup is closer to the bridge on a 4002 compared to a 4001/3, essentially in Jazz bass bridge pickup position, with less wire and less string excursion than the bridge pickup of a 4001/3, whatever the year and type of pickup, the larger value cap is indicated in order to retain body of tone in addition to the top end. I actually wire a .01 inline to the bridge pickup now on any J-bass or PJ-bass in order to avoid the classic impedance/volume drop when both pickups are dimed on these basses. Before that, I always had to back the bridge pickup volume off to about 8 to get the volume back up and still have the two-pickups together tone.

4) Side note: there is nothing wrong with experimenting with the cap. I particularly like the tone of the .0047 on a guitar and 4001 bass and the .01 on my 4002. But If you want the hinge frequency to be just a little lower, in order to get a little more body of tone to go with the jangle on a guitar, try the .0068 capacitor that is used as the "strangle" cap in a Fender Jaguar, as I have done on another guitar that has an SD SH-5 humbucker in the bridge position, also on a push-pull.
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JackTheRipper
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Re: Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

Post by JackTheRipper »

jps wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 5:26 pm
JackTheRipper wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 5:16 pm FWIW, I haven't noticed *much* difference on my 4003 with the cap in or out while in ric-o-sound mode. Very subtle.

YMMV,

--jack
Even when you solo the bridge pickup?
When solo'd, it's more apparent, but I would not call it drastic. In my case, which is probably similar to what most guys do that run ric-o-sound, I'm going though a preamp with a lot of drive and not too much bass. I combine that with the neck pup for a full sound.

Like I said, YMMV :wink:

--jack
Korladis
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Re: Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

Post by Korladis »

henry5 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 8:47 am In my experience the effect of removing the cap varies from bass to bass. I’ve just done a first and actually replaced the cap in my ‘72 Azure, which is currently wearing TI flats (I normally bypass or remove the caps in my Rics). Possibly because of the flats, I feel it’s opened up the sound a bit. It’s arguably clearer and sweeter.
It also depends on how high you have your pickup set. The effect will be bigger with the pickup set higher and smaller with it set further away from the strings.
Korladis
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Re: Jon Camp - cap or no cap?

Post by Korladis »

iiipopes wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 9:18 am To elaborate on the above:

1) The value of the cap is the same for all Rickenbacker guitars and 4001/3 basses that have the inline cap: .0047 microfarads. On my 4002, as set forth in the factory wiring diagram, the inline cap is a .01 on each pickup. This caused some comb filtering problems that probably weren't apparent at the time the model was developed. So I put the in/out push-pull on the neck pickup with push as the bypass and pull as the in-line cap engaged, just like the switch on current manufacture instruments.

2) The RIC 4002 humbuckers measure @ 8 kohms on the neck and @ 7.5 kohms on the bridge. The lesser bridge pickup DC resistance is due to the interleafed windings that go to the Low-Z XLR output jack with about 700 ohms. For me, yes, on my bass, it makes a significant difference. Running the neck pickup straight adds noticeable low end and gets rid of the comb filtering, bordering on phasing, that happens when both pickups have their respective .01 in line capacitors engaged.

3) Because the bridge pickup is closer to the bridge on a 4002 compared to a 4001/3, essentially in Jazz bass bridge pickup position, with less wire and less string excursion than the bridge pickup of a 4001/3, whatever the year and type of pickup, the larger value cap is indicated in order to retain body of tone in addition to the top end. I actually wire a .01 inline to the bridge pickup now on any J-bass or PJ-bass in order to avoid the classic impedance/volume drop when both pickups are dimed on these basses. Before that, I always had to back the bridge pickup volume off to about 8 to get the volume back up and still have the two-pickups together tone.

4) Side note: there is nothing wrong with experimenting with the cap. I particularly like the tone of the .0047 on a guitar and 4001 bass and the .01 on my 4002. But If you want the hinge frequency to be just a little lower, in order to get a little more body of tone to go with the jangle on a guitar, try the .0068 capacitor that is used as the "strangle" cap in a Fender Jaguar, as I have done on another guitar that has an SD SH-5 humbucker in the bridge position, also on a push-pull.
I'd be curious how it would sound on the neck pickup of a guitar.
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