5 string maple fingerboard 4003 questions

[jingle_jangle]

Again, not a fake, but a fretboard replacement and at the very least a touchup of the neck paint; maybe a complete refinish.

[johnallg]

Here ya go Scott....

4003Sproject09.jpg

God don't I hate when people use the wrong file to file a nut!

Well that picture confuses me. It looks like you can adjust the truss rods from either end if you want to. Thats just how my 4001 looks.

Scott, Steve's pictures show how the current rods are. They adjust from the headstock end.

[johnallg]

CJ, your bass has the old style rods.

Scott, your bass has the new style rods but in the early 4003 reverse install method. Nuts are non-standard but I believe it may be one of the first to have/try the new rods and thus the odd nuts at the headstock end.

I'm still with Jeff - not a faker, and I still think it is a factory fretboard. I also don't think it is a factory finish, but a respray and poor scraping of the binding.

[ben_brown]

CJ, your bass has the old style rods.

Scott, your bass has the new style rods but in the early 4003 reverse install method. Nuts are non-standard but I believe it may be one of the first to have/try the new rods and thus the odd nuts at the headstock end.

I'm still with Jeff - not a faker, and I still think it is a factory fretboard. I also don't think it is a factory finish, but a respray and poor scraping of the binding.

Check....check...and check! I totally agree.

[aceonbass]

As far as I know, the later style 4003 rods are the same at both ends, it's just the hardware that differs at each end. If this were an early 4003, the headstock would have long skinny slots and old style 4001 rods. It just looks to me like someone swapped the hardware end for end. Perhaps it was an Alembic fan or even the person who replaced the fretboard(if it was replaced). The nuts at the body end are the correct headstock-end adjusting nuts, so just swap them and add the load spreader plate beneath them.. The nuts at the headstock look correct for the body end, but in addition, there should also be a star washer and an acorn nut double-nutted against it and the hex nut. I believe the bass is a real rick 4003/5, but without holding it in my own hands, I can't verify the fretboard originality. A for the case, put some rocks in it along with the cat, and toss it in the river. I'd suffer a rabid dog before I'd own a cat that didn't know where to urinate.

[VRICKY63]

Thems fightin words about CATS ! Love the little fuzzys

[aceonbass]

I've had two cats(George&Ringo) for over ten years now, but if they urinated in my case, or any where else they shouldn't, they'd be gone. I guess it's like kids, some grow up to be bankers and some grow up to be bank robbers. It's all in how you raise them.

[86kubicki]

Based on the evidence, I think we need to defer to the principle of "Occam's Razor" and conclude that it's a replacement fingerboard.

[jps]

I've had two cats(George&Ringo) for over ten years now, but if they urinated in my case, or any where else they shouldn't, they'd be gone. I guess it's like kids, some grow up to be bankers and some grow up to be bank robbers. It's all in how you raise them.

These days it seem like the banks are the robbers!

[kssound]

As far as I know, the later style 4003 rods are the same at both ends, it's just the hardware that differs at each end. If this were an early 4003, the headstock would have long skinny slots and old style 4001 rods. It just looks to me like someone swapped the hardware end for end. Perhaps it was an Alembic fan or even the person who replaced the fretboard(if it was replaced). The nuts at the body end are the correct headstock-end adjusting nuts, so just swap them and add the load spreader plate beneath them.. The nuts at the headstock look correct for the body end, but in addition, there should also be a star washer and an acorn nut double-nutted against it and the hex nut. I believe the bass is a real rick 4003/5, but without holding it in my own hands, I can't verify the fretboard originality. A for the case, put some rocks in it along with the cat, and toss it in the river. I'd suffer a rabid dog before I'd own a cat that didn't know where to urinate.

The nuts at the headstock had star washers and acorn lock nuts. When I got it back from the 1st "PRO" setup shop they were in the case which is where they currently reside.

Any suggestions on where I should take it for authentication/verification/debunking? The family's talking about taking the twins to Disneyland in February, I'm tempted to take it with me and see if I can take it by the factory. I've made no progress on getting a contact there who could/would take a look at it that would be certain. I know nothing about Richard Cannata. I have no idea if he's been there for a long or short time or whether he would know about the history of fabrication in 86. I think I'll call him later today.

As I've stated before, I see zero evidence that the fingerboard has been replaced. I'm not sure about the paint. Again, I wonder about the paint as the s/n lists jan of 86 for manufacturing and I got it in Dec of 89. It wasn't very old when I picked it up.

As for Edgar (named after Edgar Winter). He's been spending some time out in the snow. He was less than 10' from the litter box when he decided to do his thing in the case.

[rickaddict]

As far as I know, the later style 4003 rods are the same at both ends, it's just the hardware that differs at each end. If this were an early 4003, the headstock would have long skinny slots and old style 4001 rods. It just looks to me like someone swapped the hardware end for end. Perhaps it was an Alembic fan or even the person who replaced the fretboard(if it was replaced). The nuts at the body end are the correct headstock-end adjusting nuts, so just swap them and add the load spreader plate beneath them.. The nuts at the headstock look correct for the body end, but in addition, there should also be a star washer and an acorn nut double-nutted against it and the hex nut. I believe the bass is a real rick 4003/5, but without holding it in my own hands, I can't verify the fretboard originality. A for the case, put some rocks in it along with the cat, and toss it in the river. I'd suffer a rabid dog before I'd own a cat that didn't know where to urinate.

The nuts at the headstock had star washers and acorn lock nuts. When I got it back from the 1st "PRO" setup shop they were in the case which is where they currently reside.

This is great information. It tells us that the bass might have left the factory with new truss rods installed the old (backwards) way. Too bad the "guitar tech" that you took it to was as incompetent as I've found most of them to be. Not to dis my pal Dane, but I'd leave the rods backward as they were probably meant to work that way. I'd definitely prefer to adjust at the headstock, but the bass might have left the factory as it is, and the rods probably work the way they are, so why mess with it? I would put the star washers and acorn nuts back where they belong though.

[rickaddict]

Any suggestions on where I should take it for authentication/verification/debunking? The family's talking about taking the twins to Disneyland in February, I'm tempted to take it with me and see if I can take it by the factory. I've made no progress on getting a contact there who could/would take a look at it that would be certain.

Might as well take it. They might be too busy. But they're reasonable people and might be able to take a look, especially if you set up an appointment in advance.

[jingle_jangle]

I'm sure that Richard's answer was not given off the top of his head, and since his desk is next to Kenny Howes', and they're both less than twenty feet from JH's office, it's not like Richard's shooting from the hip.

Here's the operative scenario, as I see it:

Consider that the factory is a small operation, and the staff are always quite busy with day-to-day business. NAMM's coming up, and RIC is busy with preparations, as they take something like 40+ instruments with them to display. The chaos that would be created if every individual with a question about his or her guitar or bass, could freely approach RIC and expect an answer on this type of question.

The upside: JH and staff are right there in the trenches every day, and know what's being done. Any unique instrument leaving the factory would have their attention and have passed their scrutiny. There have been one or two in the last couple of decades that have puzzled them, but that's about it.

The downside: 99% of the time, there's simply no story. I believe that this is the case, not because I'm such an expert of Rick basses (I'm still learning), but because the lack of detailed feedback from RIC simply indicates that there is none to be given. Richard said it is not a factory job, end of story.

Whether or not anyone there would agree to see you on a walk-in basis, is doubtful. I would definitely not simply "drop in" without an appointment, and getting one for the purpose of discussing the foibles of one instrument, would be a long-shot, based upon the same reasoning I've outlined above.

[rikk]

Couldn't a very skilled luthier make an almost perfect copy using the same techniques used by RIC? It could be from someone who had a damaged rick and cannibalized the parts. This might remain a mystery.

[jingle_jangle]

Yep. Although (as a side note), it wouldn't take a "very skilled" luthier. These days, lots of repairmen are calling themselves "luthiers". I recall rejecting the label a few years back, because I'd decided to use a somewhat more traditional definition, and not accept the description (which has honorific and economic attributes) until I'd built some real "constructed" hollow bodies.

Furthermore, in an historic European craft guild sort of sense, there would be a long apprenticeship involved, in order to ingrain self-respect and the respect of others for the amount of skill required to build something like a violin, cello, or...archtop or flat-top acoustic guitar.

The amount of skill required to make a solidbody guitar or bass copy, is somewhere on the level of intermediate cabinetmaking. ( I think it was Jimmie Webster who was asked by Fred Gretsch, after Fred had seen the Telecaster at an early trade show, "Jimmie, what are we gonna do? Anybody with a band saw and a router can go into the guitar business!" And they did...)

So it's possible. But do I honestly think this is a counterfeit with some Rick parts? Not now, although I'd reserve final opinion for a hands-on inspection and a phone call or two.