FENDER AND THE BARNUM PHILOSOPHY

geddeeee · Post by **geddeeee** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:46 am

Point taken, Paul. I think from now on I probably will keep my opinions to myself as I seem to be alienating a few people with my posts. This is not my intention. All my posts have been good natured, I think, with tongue in cheek.
It seems that the free flow of information or opinion in this forum seems to be getting less and less. A few individuals don't seem to see the fact none of my opinions are personal or directed at individuals.
My comments were in agreement with yours and directed at Fender themselves for the overpricing and exploitation of the gullible.
Some people obviously like the 'relic look', and I wouldn't want to stop them if they feel the money is worth it.
Personally I think it's all cynical marketing tat!

And with that I bid thee 'Adieu'....

freshmattyp · Post by **freshmattyp** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:55 am

Paul - It's your forum,and I respect that. You will hear nothing from me again on this subject. I stated my opinion on this topic several pages ago. You made a very respectful reply about that, and I appreciate it. Others? Not so much. C'est la vie.

Edit
Mark - I just saw your last post. "Explotation of the gullible"? That's a prime example of what I am referring to as the owner of a relic telecaster. I am neither gullible, or a hair-gelled sad muso. I'm an informed consumer who understands what I like and dislike.

Why do I even bother?

sowhat · Post by **sowhat** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:56 am

Russian emoticons are the same as American. They're international. We like to have fun and laugh as well as you guys across the pond, and sarcasm is sometimes overflowing in discussions between Russians. I have once quoted a story about professor and a bored student. Depending on context, the same word or word combination may have two opposite senses. And believe it or not, as a student, i've been told Americans always mean exactly what they say, word by word, and now i see it must not be the case! Live and learn, live and learn...
(i'm trilingual, btw, but French may be a bit forgotten now, since i rarely use it - i have no problems with reading, but speaking/writing is troublesome at times: always willing to switch to English, and that given French was my first foreign language!)

geddeeee · Post by **geddeeee** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:26 am

Matt, I refuse to temper my language or my opinions just because you take offence to the world 'gullible' or suchlike. My earlier point highlighted the fact that if you do not consider yourself exploited, gullible, hair gelled or whatever, then my comments have no relevance to you. If you have found the guitar that you want, whether it be relic-ed, brand new, in pieces, then great. I'm pleased that you are happy with your Telecaster, it obviously brings you joy and you were prepared to pay the price it cost. Great.
You seem to be missing the point that these opinions are directed at Fender and also the people who buy the guitars based on their looks alone. I suspect that you do not fall into that category. I'm sure you bought the Tele based on an informed decision. The 'muso's' that I'm talking about are young and in a band for a couple of years, thinking that they are next big thing. When it fails, they cease to play and become accountants or the like. It's all to do with image and I feel that Fender is marketing their relic guitars to this market, and THAT is cynical.
Matt, from your profile, you are one of the older musicians who I think has been playing for a few years. You bought your guitar because it was what you wanted,not for looks.
My language may be coarse at times, but I do not disrepect anyone. I will not water down my comments to please people. It is also an informed point of view. I do not say these things off the cuff without the experience to back these things up. I've been playing and recording for 25 years, and I love music. I don't care whether it's played on a Rick, Fender or an old washboard, as long as it rocks.
So please, in future don't take it personally and try to see the opinion, and agree or disagree accordingly. I mean no disrepect and I would appreciate the same sort of courtesy. The semi-barbed comments about 'other' people not being respectful is, in itself, disrectful!

admin · Post by **admin** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:08 am

This has been a real Fender bender.

There have been many interesting and passionate views expressed.

When reading posts, I think it is worth reminding ourselves that we are not able to see others speaking and as such may take offense when none was intended.

When typing posts, it sometimes takes just another minute or two to phrase comments that make our point without sounding harsh or insensitive.

I experimented with an online Talk Forum, a while back in which group discussions allowed several people to talk at once. Sometimes just a single comment allowed for the clarification needed to resolve a conflict or to avoid a misunderstanding.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:37 pm

Matt, I respect your decision to buy a relic, though I don't respect the marketing strategy and the corporate culture which made it part of Fender®'s product line.

I pose the following questions, not to test your patience, but to put your reasoning out for all to digest, and hopefully clarify another rationale for plunking down real new cash for an imitation old guitar. So read these Qs as if the previous discussions never took place. Pretend they're the first post in a thread, OK?

Why did you buy your relic Tele® in the first place? I assume it was in the $2-3K price range somewhere...what made it worth that to you over an American Tele™ at half the price or less? Was it the "aging" that appealed to you?

I can't be as hard-a**ed, frankly, about a $3K relic as I continue to be about a #15K one. Reasons for purchasing may be similar, but although a $3K relic may kick the needle of my Corporate Bull***t Detector™ (CBD™) over to about 2, a $15K one will definitely peg the sucker, and then possibly bend it around its pivot...

Again, Fender® and its Sharketing Department™ are the focus of this thread; owners' reasons for purchasing and price paid tells us more about how well they're doing in their efforts. As such it is tangential to our moaning and groaning.

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:22 pm

In the meantime, i'll tell you why I bought a Relic Nocaster.

I was looking for a good Tele (All I had was a cheap MIM one - it was horribly beat up but played and sounded great) and Mandolin Bros. had a nice array of Custom Shop Fenders. In fact, they don't even deal in "regular" Fender guitars - just the CS.

I found the Nocaster there amidst some odd purple-and-silver sparkle Teles with P-90s and black binding that have been collecting dust there for well over a year now. I don't even know what crowd they were meant to appeal to. Buck Owens wannabes?

Anyway, it had awesome twang to it, a big beefy neck, and a finish that was sort of broken-in - i.e., it wasn't too sticky - almost satin. I suppose that's just the nitro. It came with TWO cases. Why, I don't know. One for displaying? IIRC, it was $2500.

Went for it, brought it home, played it for two days, then it hit me - for $2500, I could get an American made '52 RI Tele AND an American '62 RI Jazzmaster, both of which I had been lusting after.

I did get my money back and ended up getting the Jazzmaster. I played the '52 RI Tele a bunch too, and the only discernable difference between it and the CS one for me was the "vintage" vs. "new" finish - the AV52 had a very sticky finish to it, but that didn't hinder me from wanting it.

I ended up not buying it because I realized that the cheap, beat up, MIM '96 Tele did everything I wanted it do - why even bother upgrading?

To this day, I've kept that Tele (It's going to be getting a B-Bender treatment from Dale) and spent the big bucks where I think they're well spent - on Ricks.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:15 pm

So, fiscal responsibility won the day after all, eh, John?

I think it's cool that your MIM Tele is getting the surgical treatment. Spending several times the purchase price of the guitar on a mod is counterintuitive, until you remember that you need a specific sound, and you do what's needed--why buy a MIA Tele just to take a router to it?

It's what I call "workmanlike nirvana". A way of problem solving that looks at a goal, finds the shortest way to it with the available assets, and turns up the heat to get 'er done.

Admirable.

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:25 pm

Thanks Paul!

This Tele has seen a lot, and well, I can't say i've always been kind to it, but it's a Tele - a slab of wood and a neck bolted together. I dragged it (Almost literally) to New Orleans and played 'er on the street. She's been carved in to - lovingly, of course, in a style that might have made JWL proud. It was $300 and it's done exactly what a $2500 Tele would do - the difference is that I don't feel bad about playing it hard, or dragging it around the country without a case (Almost literally).

One day i'm gonna drill a B5 onto it and when Dale's ready, the B-bender. I'm not much of a steel player so it'll make things much easier in that area.

Now back on topic!

winston · Post by **winston** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:33 pm

On the other side of the equation, I was looking for a MIJ double bound sunburst 62RI Tele. I also wanted it be in as perfect condition as possible. I spent months and months looking for my dream guitar. I did not think that I would ever find one in a condition that suited my taste. John (B) advertized one on the forum and after a very courteous exchange of e-mail sold it to me. It is in great condition and I am a very happy camper.

I would not have bought it had it been artificially reliced.

freshmattyp · Post by **freshmattyp** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:12 pm

Remind me never to say I'm done posting in a thread again.

I bought mine in 1999 when they were a relatively new commodity. I recall I paid somewhere around $1500 for mine, I got it on an inventory reduction sale at my local shop. It was, as luck would have it, one of the Cunetto-era relics. It feels and plays like a 50 year old guitar. Broken in. The neck feels like an old friend. The body has the feel of old wood and old nitro. It is, in all respects, an outstanding guitar. The reason I bought the relic over the normal 52 RI or one of the American Standards was that it felt like an old friend immediately.

I love the look of a hard-played guitar. The longest I've owned any instrument is 20 years and counting. My oldest one (also a tele) is starting to get that look, but it's not there yet.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:17 pm

I think something that has to be factored into the argument is the way guitars age.

Regarding nitro finishes (Paul, you'd know best here), aren't they FAR more prone to getting the beloved "right forearm" wear, as well as nicks and dings in general? With the modern poly finishes (As well as CV), we just don't see the same kind of wear that was seen on Fenders and Gibsons up to the mid 60's.

Many guitarists, Matt included, do like the look of a worn guitar, and it's doesn't seem to be enough to "buy a guitar and play it every night for 20 years", because we're dealing with plasticine (Not sure of CV is plasticine at all) finishes and not the thin nitro.

Paul, please let me know if any of this is incorrect - these are the assumptions i'd been under - most likely propogated by the bigwigs at Fender!

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:04 pm

John, I sincerely hope that the word "plasticine" is a misheard term on your part. It's actually a type of modeling clay.

I've never experienced a finish as soft as "nitro" (nitrocellulose lacquer). The lac part is a natural substance, and it is blended with cellulose nitrate--same stuff that traditional bindings are made of, which is also a component in explosives and is classified as such by the ICC and FAA, so it cannot be shipped by air and must be clearly labelled as "explosive" when shipped by truck. I digress.

Nitrocellulose lacquer is much more likely to get the arm wear that you describe. Every time I finish a pre-'59 Rick, it must be carefully buffed several times, and even then will "flash back" or dull in normal use after awhile. In dee ol days, I finished a number of antique cars in nitro (DuPont Duco) before it became unavailable in the late '60s and the market switched to acrylic lacquer (introduced as DuPont Lucite and equivalent in 1959), which was literally plastic dissolved in solvent, and once applied, plastic-coated the object in question.

I caution against the use of the vague term "poly" as it simply means "many" but does not tell us "many what?". In paints, there are polyesters and polyurethanes. Fender and other manufacturers use polyester finishes on their Mexican and Asian guitars. Folks like Rickenbacker and Gretsch (Japan) use vinyl/toluene sealers for initial sealing, acrylic lacquers for their color coats, and polyurethane, which is a chemically-catalyzing, crosslinking coating of incredible toughness and film strength.

Fender likes to tell us that nitro-finished solidbody guitars have "better tone", and to a certain extent, they're correct--a thin-nitro finished guitar will have a different resonance than a slab of wood given a thick coat of polyester paint.

You know and so do I, that a good player can make any guitar sound like his own after a short "bedding in period".

Every month for the past few, there's been an ad in VG for a blues player's album (I forget the name) who apparently is some sort of legend of this generation; regardless, he gets his tone from a MIM Strat, because you can see it called out on the headstock.

So who are they pitching "thin nitro" to? The collectors and speculators, sure. But primarily to the "wannabees" who want to think they are getting closer to the masters.

Rickenbacker found crosslinking CV almost 50 years ago. The aim was again to give best value for money by slowing down ordinary player wear. You will see Ricks with arm wear and chips here and there. But it never seems to be as extensive as that seen on old Fenders. They truly are the tradesman's workhorse as far as electrics are concerned.

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:21 pm

John, I sincerely hope that the word "plasticine" is a misheard term on your part. It's actually a type of modeling clay.

Yep, sorry - I thought it referred to anything plastic-based. I was referring to Fender's "poly"(ester), which I had always thought were plastic-based.

johnallg · Post by **johnallg** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:30 pm

Take the weekend off, and wow! Thought I was going to have to suggest boxing gloves there for a while!

SF/Fantasy: I've read the HP books - nice, entertaining reading. I also particularily like Frank Herbert's Dune series.

I also read and collect the Nero Wolfe books (need quite a few yet), ESG's Perry Mason series (inherited dozens from my Uncle), and Zane Grey's westerns - I have them all. Super location imagery!