Vox Amps Big vs. Small

[BuddyDog]

Yes! Update please

[Folkie]

Rich and Steve,

Update: I got so preoccupied with mods to my 1991 330/12 and my 2010 360/12 that I had to put the amp purchase on hold. My 330 now has toasters, and my 360 looks stock (except for the toasters), but has the string-spacing of the older George Harrison (360/12C63) model.

As for the Vox amps, I am THIS close to ordering up a Chinese-made AC15, with an Alnico Blue speaker, from North Coast Music. NCM has a short (48 hour) return policy, but they give every new amp a run-through to check for microphonic tubes and other defects and to "break in" the amp. They also double box, and, as far as I know, they're the only dealer that will upgrade speakers for you. I know there have been complaints about the cheap workmanship of the Chinese-made Vox line, but my main concern here is with tone. If someone can point out to me that the Alnico Blue speaker doesn't live up to all the hype, then maybe I'll reconsider. But I like LOTS of treble! Any thoughts?

Robert

[paologregorio]

I say buy it! I like the Alnicos. . . of course, I've played through the Greenbacks in Kenny Howes' AC30 and that sounded killer as well; all of my AC30s have the Alnico blues in them.

The alternative is to buy a Weber Blue Pup; made in CA, and you can get a higher wattage speaker if you want.

NCM is a great place to buy your amp from.

[k43rover]

Some interesting thoughts on this thread, here's my 2 cents FWIW.

I've had a few Marshall built reissue AC15's and AC30's (i.e. the last ones built in England from around 1993 to 2004). They were all great amps especially when fitted with Celestion Blues. I'd say its definitely worth the extra for the Blues and when fitted to these amps they give the best tone, and closest to the '60's sound, of any "standard" Vox reissues (i.e. non hand wired) since the original '60's JMI amps.

I have also owned (briefly) a few of the non-hand wired Chinese Vox amps - including ones fitted with the Chinese Blues. I couldn't get on with any of them for any length of time and got shut - I wasn't impressed with either the construction quality or tone compared to the Marshall built models.

I still have one of the final Marshall built Hand Wired Limited Edition AC30 Heads with the accompanying cab with English Blues - this is genuine point to point turret board construction; built like a tank and sounds superb. I have yet to sample the latest Vietnam made hand wired AC30's...maybe they've finally got the quality and tone back to the standard that Marshall were producing 10 years ago....

I also use a '64 AC10 (with the 2x10 inch Elac Alnicos). These 10's are amazing little amps - as far as the tone is concerned I'd say they're every bit as good as a JMI era AC30 and if extra volume is needed just mike one up. If I ever had to downsize to just one amp, this little beauty is the one I'd keep....

[Folkie]

Eddie,

Thanks so much for the advice! I didn't realize that the Alnico Blue on an AC15C1 was made in China, like the rest of the amp. Could you elaborate on the tone deficiencies of the Chinese-made Vox?

Robert

[k43rover]

Hi Robert. The way I think about it is this. If you are after the "classic Vox tone" you have to start as your reference point with the early/mid-60's JMI era amps and in particular the AC30. This was the sound that underpinned the British Invasion and has been so sought after ever since. I don't know if you have had the chance to play through many amps of this era; if you haven't, I'd urge you first to try and locate a few and beg/steal/borrow them to get a feel for the tone they deliver. Once you have that reference point in your mind, and assuming you like it and want it (not everyone does!) then that would provide you with the benchmark for auditioning/comparing the later non-JMI Vox amps and deciding whether you can live with their tone or not. I've been lucky enough to own a couple of '60's AC30's including a 1964 AC30 Treble Top Boost so whenever I trial a newer Vox I think I have a pretty clear idea of whether It comes anywhere close to the holy grail of that JMI period.

Like I said in the earlier post, I think the Marshall built AC30's were very, very, good and the overall tone they delivered, especially the TBX versions (i.e. with the Blues) was close to the '60's amps...although by no means the same. It's really difficult to meaningfully describe the differences of tone in words but I'd say the overall characteristic of a '60's original is that clean, "glassy", (think classic Shadows) tone at lower volumes transitioning through a lovely creamy/organic distortion as the volume level rises to end up with a really earthy overdriven rock feel (think the sort of tone the Kinks had in their early releases). The Marshall built amps come close to delivering this tonal range but they dont quite have the organic feel that the JMI's had. The Chinese built models I've tried dont come anywhere near. Even with the Blues fitted, to me they sound much more sterile/lifeless when compared to a '60's original or even a Marshall era model. However, I wouldn't blame the Chinese assembled Celestions - as an experiment I once swapped over a Chinese Blue and put it in a Marshall built AC15 (which has the cheaper "Bulldog" as standard) and that speaker sounded fantastic driven by the UK made amp's circuitry. The other caveat I have is that I've not tried any of the most recent Vox offerings (which I believe are now Vietnam assembled) so it's entirely possible these latest versions are an improvement.

At the end of the day all of this is of course totally subjective - if you like, or indeed prefer, the sound of a Chinese built Vox then that is the right choice for you. Certainly it will make life a lot cheaper if you go down that route. Good luck!!

[k43rover]

btw Robert, I thought you might like to see the 1964 AC30 Treble Top Boost I had - it's now been passed on to a fellow forumite who has returned it to active front line service (where I understand it regularly draws admiring comments from knowledgeable musos in the crowd )... This one has survived in completely unmessed with original condition and the tone was superb.

[Folkie]

Thanks, Eddie. You clearly know your stuff. For me the issue of vintage amps is analagous to the issue of vintage guitars. Whenever I visit the "Vintage Rickenbackers 1954-84" forum, I read tons of stuff about how the vintage Rics run circles around the newer ones. But, the fact is, I'm entirely satisfied with the sound of my 1991 330/12 and my 2010 360/12, and, although I would love to own a vintage Ric, I have no basis for comparing them to the newer models. So it doesn't surprise me to hear from a vintage amp collector that the older Vox amps are far superior to the new ones, particularly to the budget models. The question is, will I be disappointed with a Chinese-made amp, and, not having played through any of the older Voxes, I doubt that would be the case. The only amp I really have to compare the Alnico Blue-equipped AC15C1 with is the very same model with the cheaper Greenback speaker. I played both of my 12'ers through one at Guitar Center, and I thought it sounded pretty good. So I would imagine that the higher end speaker would only improve the sound.

It might be a good thing that my ears haven't been spoiled by the sound of one of the vintage models you described. I'll certainly save a lot of money!
By the way, where do you stand on the issue of hand-wiring?

Robert

[jps]

By the way, where do you stand on the issue of hand-wiring?

Robert

[Folkie]

[cjj]

So, you're saying that, if you took a million monkeys and gave 'em all wire and soldering irons, eventually they would produce a Vox amp???

[k43rover]

Like I said above Robert, if you're happy with the sound of a Chinese made Vox then that's really the only thing that counts.

The advantage we have here in the UK with the '60's Vox amps is that they still turn up on the open market quite frequently and the asking prices are still mostly realistic - so a JMI era '60's Vox is still a viable alternative to a more modern Vox for a lot of folks here. Whereas from what I can see on eBay/Gbase etc the asking prices in the US for the Made in England '60's Vox amps are crazy high. Clearly it's a complete reversal of the situation with vintage Ricks where the asking prices for the small number that are already in the UK are sky high whereas in the US you can pick 'em up for the same price as a vintage reissue. I guess its a straightforward reflection of the relative supply/demand of the amps/guitars in UK versus US.

You asked about advantages of handwired - leaving aside the obvious contribution of an original handwired circuit to the classic tone, for me one of the most significant ones is that if you can find a '60's Vox, even if it's in totally beat up condition, it doesn't usually require much work by a competent tech to replace worn out caps etc on a handwired board and bring the amp back to full working order. Whereas as I understand it (and I'm no techie so this is based on the views of the amp techs I've spoken to) on a pcb if the circuitry has failed it's often very difficult/impossible/non-economic to repair. So on a purely practical level, although they can be temperamental, an old '60's HW valve amp is very difficult to kill!!

One final thought, if you can find a Marshall built AC15 Stateside, I would thoroughly recommend that amp. In the UK you can buy them in the same price range as the Chinese AC15's - if they are the same price in the US market, I'd go the extra mile to try to track one down. I've attached some pics below of one that I owned including an internal chassis shot...these were definitely built to last.

[BuddyDog]

There has been a lot of pooh-poohing the Asian made Vox amps, which IMHO is not completely justified.

The current Vox standard offerings (C1, C2, C2X) now have an MDF cabinet and a solid state rectifier, whereas the former CC1, CC2, CC2X had a birch cabinet and tube rectifier. The former ones had a lot more switches for voicing the amp versus the current, but not really sure it makes that much of a difference. Rich F has a CC2 converted to CC2X which sounds great, even though built in China.

The Celestion blues that were manufactured in China initially had a different cone than the UK made Blues, which a lot of people were up in arms about. The Asian Blues now allegedly use the "proper" cone.

FWIW, I initially had an AC15H1TV (Heritage series) built in China with the "wrong" blue and it absolutely killed. That amp was dissed because it used PCB's and handwired components onto the PCB. I never had a problem with that.

Now I have an HW2X built in Vietnam,with the "proper" cone Blues and turrret board wiring versus PCB. Maybe the construction has some bearing on the tone, but I really don't know. The advantage is if something fries in the circuit, it is much easier to repair. Maybe the amp is more touch sensitive and responsive, but now some people are talking mods to that amp. Tone chasing can be an infinite process

Marshall didn't build a lot of the Handwired AC30's in the early 90's and back then they were about $4K new and they still command a high price used.

IMHO, just go the NCM route if you want an AC15 with a Celestion Blue or find a used handwired.

[Folkie]

Thanks, Eddie and Steve! You've given me lots of pertinent information. I could invest in a used hand-wired amp (There are many on eBay, and I believe Guitar Center has one in their system), but I'm a little wary of buying a used tube amp. What is the likelihood that I could have problems with a used amp?

I may drop Gary at North Coast Music an e-mail to find out if NCM is using authentic Alnico Blues for their upgrades, and if they sell Vietnamese amps. I'd love to hear directly from Rich about his CC2X. Paging 8mileshigher!

Robert

[k43rover]

You make some interesting points here Steve - I'd have the following observations...

The Celestion blues that were manufactured in China initially had a different cone than the UK made Blues, which a lot of people were up in arms about. The Asian Blues now allegedly use the "proper" cone.

Based on my swap of an early Chinese Blue (i.e. one with a supposedly inferior cone) into a Marshall AC15 I would say these speakers are excellent - I was able to compare that Chinese Blue in the Marshall AC15 directly with English made ones in a Marshall AC30 TBX I had at the time and, frankly, I couldn't tell the difference tone wise - may not be a statistically valid comparison but I think the reason these Chinese Blues got a bad reputation is little or nothing to do with the speaker itself and all about the quality of the early Chinese amps that housed it.....

FWIW, I initially had an AC15H1TV (Heritage series) built in China with the "wrong" blue and it absolutely killed. That amp was dissed because it used PCB's and handwired components onto the PCB. I never had a problem with that.

I don't think there is any big issue with PCB's per se...it's all about whether the basic circuit design is good and whether the overall quality of the amp is right (good quality valves, birch cab, quality pcb and other components etc) - all the standard Marshall built AC30's and AC15's were pcb and they sound great.

Marshall didn't build a lot of the Handwired AC30's in the early 90's and back then they were about $4K new and they still command a high price used.

I think you're out on the timing here Steve. IIRC the standard Marshall built AC15/30 amps (which were pcb) were made between around 1993 and 2004 but the Hand Wired Limited Edition AC30 combo and Head/Cabs were only made right at the end of UK production (I think around 2002 to 2004 time) - I am not aware of Marshall building any Hand Wired versions for Korg prior to this final run. You are absolutely spot on regarding the price - they were very expensive new but still hold their value. I'm attaching a few more pics of my head/cab...this one dates from 2003.