Mastery Bridge for Rickenbackers in the works

[collin]

No limes there, Jason!

Couple lemons though!



(j/k, naturally...)

[walker]

Heh heh! I noticed they left out the part where the mother Grizzly came over and tore off the guy's head and limbs!

[walker]

(more hijacking) The power and speed of these bears I find awe inspiring.

This isn't an attack, as the title implies. But it shows just how fast they are and how they can charge without a "tell."


Here's a Grizzly who could have killed the guy but was simply in apprehend mode.

I assume that their Top 20 countdown was "Idiots Who Drop Acid At The Zoo."

A couple who narrowly narrowly escape with their lives. *Caution* Contains graphic photos of the kind of damage bears can really administer.

[Chrome Aardvark]

Since my name came up a couple of pages ago I thought I'd better weigh into this debate. Mastery bridges work well, you can set the radius for the bridge much better than a standard one, nothing gets in the way of the string, and it adds resonance to the actual guitar. With the JM's it stops strings from popping out of their saddles and provides a stable platform even under the most extreme vibrato action. This is why guys like Steve Wynn, Nels Cline, J Mascis and Sonic Youth all use them.

aceonbass said:

Taking a closer look at this piece shows that unless your E,A,D & G,B,E saddles are in a straight line when intonated on a stock bridge, you will NEVER get the A&B strings to intonate with this bridge.

Admittedly, it takes a while to set it up the first time around, but once you get hang of it, it's quite easy to adjust. It's really about moving the outside strings (low E and D, G and high E) until they intonate and then fiddling around a little until the A and B are right.

aceonbass said:

Very seldom will you find that the E/A/D and G/B/E saddles are in a straight line in each trio. The Mastery saddles compromise intonation by having shared saddles.

Like I said, you can set up the radius for the bridge and even adjust the angle of the bridge to degree, so it's not sitting in a straight line. There are less limitations to the Mastery then there are to standard Rick roller bridge in which the strings all sit at relatively the same height and intonation is about moving the saddle backwards or forwards so the string is flatter or sharper.

Antipodean said:

...am I right in believing this system won't adjust for intonation properly if you use a wound "G" string?

I haven't put one on anything with a wound third, but a friend has a Mastery on his Bass VI and loves it. I don't think my friend uses the vibrato arm on the Bass VI and neither do I, so I'm not sure if I've answered this as well as you'd like. My Bass VI is stock and it works well as it is, so I haven't touched it, nor have I compared the two of them.

aceonbass said:

Seems to me a small tube of Permatex Lock-Tite from the auto parts store would solve the main problem with the stock part.

As I said earlier in this thread, the main issue with the roller bridge is the shift in the height adjustment screws when using the Accent vibrato, rather than the travel over the roller bridge. Yes you can use Loctite, as I have in the past, but if there's a more permanent solution avaiable and if it adds greater resonance to a Rick, like it does to a JM, then that's a bonus on top of having a more stable bridge.

[Chrome Aardvark]

Just wanted to add that most guitars I own are modded to some degree and I think that sometimes the difference between a good guitar and a great guitar maybe just a little tweak here and there. Also.. when someone offers a solution to a problem, check it out first or at least get some kind of informed opinion before shouting them down.

[lfoc]

Hi everyone. I registered so that I could provide a user's perspective, which has been missing in spite of some informed responses from mastery users. There is already a bunch of my feedback over on TGP, and this page is referenced there. Here's that link:

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p=13851892

Anyhow, I find now.that Chrome Aardvark has covered a lot of what I thought would be most useful. The mastery bridges, in my experience, intonanate easily and perfectly, even with a wound g, even in weird or unintended applications. I have M1s on a Hallmark Deke Dickerson and an Epiphone Wilshire with the new bigsbyish trem they're offering. Both intonate perfectly. The Wilshire has flatwound pyramid 11s with a wound g. Both sound tremendously better in all the ways I describe at length over on TGP. Most important to this discussion, probably, is that all the different guitars I have them on sound like themselves, not like the bridge. There's just more of what the guitar has to offer in evidence with the mastery on. This is decidedly true of the M5 as well.. My 330 is more a 330, to my ear, than ever. I feel, every time I play a guitar with one of John's bridges, that what it brings out of the guitar is exactly what people are talking about when they say "that's a good one" after having a go.

I'd also agree with Chrome Aardvark on the ease and precision of the radius adjustment. I find the bridge easier to tweak than anything else out there. As for the 2 saddle/6 saddle question, the two intonation screws on each saddle allow you the shift the orientation of each of the compensated saddles as CA describes. It works. The other great thing about the two saddle design is that it greatly increases the downward string pressure one each saddle, which creates better energy transmission from string to body. Maybe it's not for everyone, but I haven't encountered anyone who doesn't like a guitar better with a mastery than without. I've had a Rick, on and off since the mid 80s. I've had this one for about six years. It's staying.

[admin]

Scott, thanks for the link and your most informative post. It is great to hear from a Rickenbacker user of the Mastery Bridge in this discussion. Your detailed response is much appreciated.

[aceonbass]

Admittedly, it takes a while to set it up the first time around, but once you get hang of it, it's quite easy to adjust. It's really about moving the outside strings (low E and D, G and high E) until they intonate and then fiddling around a little until the A and B are right.

So let me get this straight...Once the intonation has been set on the 1st and 3rd string in each trio, you "fiddle around a little until the A and B are right". Would you please explain what you mean by this, because if by "fiddling around a little" you mean moving either end of the saddle in any way, you will throw the intonation off for the strings you've just set the intonation on. Now it is just possible that once the intonation is set at either end of a saddle that the intonation will be right on for the middle string, but this is dependent on string gauge (among other things), so it may or may not be right. To have the intonation for the A and B strings dependent on the intonation for their adjacent strings is a compromise.

Like I said, you can set up the radius for the bridge and even adjust the angle of the bridge to degree, so it's not sitting in a straight line. There are less limitations to the Mastery then there are to standard Rick roller bridge in which the strings all sit at relatively the same height and intonation is about moving the saddle backwards or forwards so the string is flatter or sharper.

Each saddle on a Rick roller bridge is individually adjustable for each string, but the saddles are all the same height, so that is a compromise. Each saddle trio on the Mastery bridge for Ricks is apparently machined and then bent to a 7.5" radius. I'm inferring this based on the bridge Mastery makes for Fenders. To adjust a saddle made for a 7.5" radius to accommodate a 10" radius, you would first have to either lower the saddle on the inner end, or raise the saddle at the outer end. Once this is done, the inner and outer strings are now on the correct radius, but the center strings in each saddle will be slightly higher than the outer strings because, remember, the saddle was made on a 7.5" radius. Now if each saddle were straight, the middle string would end up slightly closer to the fretboard than the outer strings, and that wouldn't be right either. The best thing to have done concerning fret board radius, would been to have made the saddle on a 10" radius in the first place, then you wouldn't need any height adjustment at all for the saddles. Whatever tooling that is required to make the saddles for a Fender has been used to make these saddles, and that is what I mean by compromise. I know there are more Fenders in the world, but do you want a part made for a Fender adapted to fit your Rickenbacker?

As I said earlier in this thread, the main issue with the roller bridge is the shift in the height adjustment screws when using the Accent vibrato, rather than the travel over the roller bridge. Yes you can use Loctite, as I have in the past, but if there's a more permanent solution available and if it adds greater resonance to a Rick, like it does to a JM, then that's a bonus on top of having a more stable bridge.

I'll give you this one. As I've said previously, the base plate is a great idea, and should be available separately. In conclusion, as I've said before, I'm not commenting on the tone the piece imparts to your guitar. I'm saying that each string cannot be adjusted precisely and independently of other strings, and that is a compromise I wouldn't be willing to live with. Now if the same saddle design were applied to saddles designed to accommodate two strings each, all of it's design compromises would have been eliminated. You would then be able to adjust intonation for each string, and set them on any radius you wanted, without compromise. If all of the components were then chrome plated, you could put a cover on it, and then it would look stock, eliminating any aesthetic concerns.
Now if none of my "nitpicking" matters to you, and the tone really does it for you, then that's fine, but it's not more adjustable than the stock part. It just does some things better. Since the designer decided to post on this thread, I asked him to clear up my assumptions based on my observations, but he's chosen not to, so infer what you will from that. I have.

[lfoc]

No problem. Very glad to help. A luthier friend who's played the rick ended up holding onto it for an extra couple of weeks, professing "an unnatural love" for the guitar, which is understandable. I'll get a pick or two up here when I can. It's an '85, by the way.

[electrofaro]

Dane, what about acoustic guitars? You must find them quite unplayable as they have no way to adjust intonation for individual strings? I get the point you're making, but let's not throw the baby out with the dirty tub water and wait what long-time forumites who ordered it have to say about it.

[sloop_john_b]

Dane, what about acoustic guitars? You must find them quite unplayable as they have no way to adjust intonation for individual strings? I get the point you're making, but let's not throw the baby out with the dirty tub water and wait what long-time forumites who ordered it have to say about it.

Werner, how many Rickenbacker basses have you modified?

[aceonbass]

Werner, I don't have an acoustic guitar, and that's not what we're talking about on this thread. I also never said the Mastery bridge rendered any guitar unplayable. I was very succinct in my criticisms of it, so I know that that was neither said nor inferred. Getting rid of the stock bridge in favor of one that has it's own adjustment compromises IS throwing the baby out with the bath water. I have one of Ed Roman's bridges on my Rick guitar. It's a heavy brass casting that's chrome plated, has it's saddles set on a 10" radius, and has intonation adjustment for each string. In a stock application it could still flip over, but it's not being used in an application where that could happen.

[electrofaro]

Werner, how many Rickenbacker basses have you modified?

None, but then I've never been into basses anyway

Dane, if you like it or not, acoustic guitars are related to what you are on about. There's no way to set intonation per individual string on regular acoustic guitars - why then would this Mastery bridge suddenly be a problem for an electric guitar, especially as the Mastery bridge does allow some form of movement for intonation? I think you're making too much of a deal out of the whole intonation angle. An electric guitar like the Gretsch Duojet GH must be horrible stuff!

[aceonbass]

Werner, again, we're not talking about acoustic guitars, and you're not getting my point. The current bridge on Rick guitars has the correct radius as well as intonation adjustment for each string. While it's certainly possible to improve on it, any new part would have to at least have those features, at least for me. Three steps forward and one step back is not a net improvement in my view.....and we're not talking about Gretsch guitars either, but the guitar your talking about does have a pretty lame bridge.

[ken_j]

So let me get this straight...Once the intonation has been set on the 1st and 3rd string in each trio, you "fiddle around a little until the A and B are right". Would you please explain what you mean by this, because if by "fiddling around a little" you mean moving either end of the saddle in any way, you will throw the intonation off for the strings you've just set the intonation on. Now it is just possible that once the intonation is set at either end of a saddle that the intonation will be right on for the middle string, but this is dependent on string gauge (among other things), so it may or may not be right. To have the intonation for the A and B strings dependent on the intonation for their adjacent strings is a compromise.

Each saddle on a Rick roller bridge is individually adjustable for each string, but the saddles are all the same height, so that is a compromise. Each saddle trio on the Mastery bridge for Ricks is apparently machined and then bent to a 7.5" radius. I'm inferring this based on the bridge Mastery makes for Fenders. To adjust a saddle made for a 7.5" radius to accommodate a 10" radius, you would first have to either lower the saddle on the inner end, or raise the saddle at the outer end. Once this is done, the inner and outer strings are now on the correct radius, but the center strings in each saddle will be slightly higher than the outer strings because, remember, the saddle was made on a 7.5" radius. Now if each saddle were straight, the middle string would end up slightly closer to the fretboard than the outer strings, and that wouldn't be right either. The best thing to have done concerning fret board radius, would been to have made the saddle on a 10" radius in the first place, then you wouldn't need any height adjustment at all for the saddles. Whatever tooling that is required to make the saddles for a Fender has been used to make these saddles, and that is what I mean by compromise. I know there are more Fenders in the world, but do you want a part made for a Fender adapted to fit your Rickenbacker?

Quite frankly I believe Dane is spot on. Just looking at the way the bridge is engineered you can only satisfy the two outer strings for both height, radius and intonation. The center string will have to go along for the ride. That being said it is quite possible for the center strings, A & B, to fall in to a correct position depending on string and or core diameter. Another thing to remember is that all Ricks do not have a 10" crown radius some reissues and vintage guitars are 7.25".

The saddles on an acoustic can be filed at an angle to acheive intonation just as Rick does with their six saddle bridge on a 12 string. Yes this is a compromise and not always right on. The saddle must be set for a certain string guage when the guitar is built.

In both cases it is good to remember that you really begin to hear the differences in intonation when playing above the 12th fret. Many acoustic players don't play above the 12th especially on a 12 fret model. Electric is entirely different from that stand point.

I would however like to play with one of these bridges to see how close or how far off it would be. Plus I would be interested in the tonal difference.