What erks me.

[jdogric12]

Man, Joel, you sure love to *****!

[jdogric12]

Well, thank God you posted your gripes about it here, Joel, so the guitar manufacturers will see how ridiculous they've been and stop annoying you by making their money. You've really done a great service and not wasted my time.

[Tarrbot]

I am not hung up on specs, but there has to be a plan or drawings that the companies making the guitar have so that the people who make the guitar make it correctly. You just don't grab a slab of maple and start whacking away at it and hope it ends up looking like a 4003. Routing gets done, holes are drilled for strap buttons, output jacks, pickguards and bridges ect. Schematics are drawn up to wire the electronics.

You're missing the obvious here.

I see you're an electrician. There are specs for any given electrical project but none of those specs give exact lengths of wiring to the half-inch and that's what you seem to be asking for on a guitar company.

You have specs and as-builts. They are mutually exclusive and therefore are not always the same so when you have a guitar that ships out the door, it may not be exactly like the guitar that shipped out the door 5 minutes earlier. The quality of the instrument didn't change, however. The specs were adhered to but possibly--quite possibly--the second instrument was slightly different than the first instrument.

How are you not seeing this since you see as-builts and designed drawings and they aren't always the same? In fact, many times they aren't the same at all.

[Grey]

May have gotten of track. My whole initial statement was why do rock stars need to come in and be technical reps for guitar they never built in the first place. Gibson has VOS guitars. Which stands for Vintage Original Specs. So somewhere where ever Gibson stores them are the specs for the guitars they have made over the years. If you want to get a guitarist or bassist and bring them in to design a guitar or bass from the ground up and design it to there specs and what hardware they want that is great. But if a company is just trying to go back an recreate that exact guitar they made 40 years ago, there should be some specs somewhere. Right.

I'd still really like to know why you care about this so much, because at this point it looks like you're complaining for no other reason than the sake of complaining.

Isn't this the exact same thread you already made a month ago?
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=400857

[Clint]

I recall reading an article several years ago about the difficulty Gibson was having recreating Les Paul models to vintage specs. It turned out none of the actual vintage instruments they used for reference, matched the original factory specs. Some weren't even close. Based on what I've seen, read and experienced myself, I believe this is also true of Fenders and Rickenbackers. Also, when one adds up all the mods and repairs done by various owners and individuals over the years, all bets are off.

[whojamfan]

Jason, you sound like you've been played like an 800 dollar banjo

[jdogric12]

derp derp derp... herp a derp!

[JakeK]

I'm pretty much going to agree with Collin and Brian M: I don't really buy into the signature LE thing. There is absolutely no difference between a 1998 Townshend and a 1997SPC aside from a pickguard that isn't even Townshend's signature, just big bold letters that spell his name and a little picture of him holding what I think might be a Gibson SG(?). He never even wore the signature guard on his own prototype!

From what I hear, the 660/12 Petty is different from the standard 660/12 models that followed it with a thin D shaped neck, hot 12k toasters and birdseye maple body. YMMV. The 325JL and 350JL, 6 and 12 are absolutely no different from a modern day 325C64, 350V63 6 or 12 string except that they have the Lennon signature guard. a 325V63 and 325JL differ because of the JL's thinner headstock and lower ohmage toasters.

Now, a 360/12 Carl Wilson is different from any 360/12 be it standard or V64 due to it's thin-braced flamed wood top and vintage spec 7.5k pickups. The 370/12 McGuinn is different from a standard 370/12 due to it's onboard compressor, 21-fret neck, checked binding and special wiring; a McGuinn, like the Hoffs 350 would be hard to counterfeit.

Anyway, I can go on about every signature model, but I won't. Let's just say that my brain hurts from reading these types of threads.

I don't really buy into the signature models, but if they were selling me a good-shape McGuinn for under $3k or Wilson for under $2k, I'd go for it, just to see what it's all about.

[just_bassics]

I'm not going to try to explain it (yet again...) but for those who want to give it a shot, please remember to use small words....

[whojamfan]

You can take 5 consecutively numbered Strats and they will all sound from just a little different, to drastically different. Same goes with playability. Dealing with organic materials at varying stages of curing/drying of the wood, where it came from-even the same tree-and so many other minute differences-no specs in the world would be able to reproduce something that was made decades ago to it's exact composition.

How many times have you heard someone say, "I had to go through umpteen Strats before I found this one?"

Banking on this standard perception and experience by the bulk of the buying public, a signature model is MARKETED under the flag that you will get a winner, sight unseen, because this artist is great and wouldn't put their name on a "Dog". Absent is your neverending quest to get "the one", as the reported "careful selection of components and hours of work with said artist" has taken your "having to play multiple guitars" to find the instrument you will be happy with, off of the table.

For people that have lucrative careers, where playing is actually just a very part time hobby, having a signature guitar goes well with the 5,000 dollar limited edition handwired 15 watt tube amp that some guitar player shootout and internet chatter deemed "the best". These folks can now impress their other rich friends who don't play, or play much, about how they have the same stuff that said artist, or whoever, does. These folks, and collectors looking for an investment, are usually the main buyers of these super expensive items that generally escape the logic of the seasoned player. Not trying to put anybody down here, just explaining a demographic.

The only 2 signature Strats I've seen that really sold consistantly well to players were the SRV and the Clapton. This was largely due to the neck and pickups on the SRV, and the midboost circuitry on the Clapton. Both guitars were well made, and weren't horribly overpriced, and as I said on the last thread with this topic, every SRV we sold left the store with a different pickguard. I will also say, every SRV came back within 6 mos for the free setup we offered with purchase, oozing with signs it had been played heavily and regularly. A big win for both Fender and it's customers of that model.

The Clapton, however, didn't sell quite as well, and usually came back with what I call "the thrill is gone" light playing. A lot of folks didn't much care for the Lace Sensor pickups and midboost after they had played it in their world for a while. I even had many requests that I wire them up a completely new pickguard with Texas Specials or Vintage reissues to get a more "Stratty" sound out of it, and still have the original pickguard with electronics should they decide to sell it at a later date.

EMG sold a fully loaded, drop in pickguard for Gilmours setup. In 10 years of retail, I only ever sold one. It is also reported David only used thart setup live in the 80s and such to kill the single coil noise and signal degradation from all the effects and rack stuff he was going through. The fact that I only sold one might be an indication that this wasn't a setup that folks wanted when thinking of Gilmour. I will say, the loaded pickguard was very cool and versatile for what it is, and very capable of producing great sounds. Whether or not sounds that folks wanted is a testimony given by it's sales, or lack thereof.

So yes, from both a marketing point of view, and a real customer base point of view, signature models do work, and can be a very successful addition to the roster. One can argue their merits, authenticity, or reason for existing, but the fact is, companies are making money manufacturing them, and isn't that really the bottom line of any "business?"

If ya don't like them, don't buy them, don't know what else to tell ya

[ajish4]

JUST an FYI....

I just combined the "EXPLAIN IT TO ME" thread with the "WHAT ERKS ME" thread. Seemed to be the same topic started by the same member in two distinct threads.

I've been MIA for a bit, and I'm trying to catch up on all I've missed.

I'm assuming this isn't a TROLL thread, for now, so carry on!

[08 Ric 4003]

Not Trolling. I am being totally serious. I just want to know what warrants a instrument maker charging 55 K for an instrument? I know there is craftsmanship that goes into making guitars, basses ect. But is there something I am missing. I know there are people our there that have jobs that can afford such prices. Does it sound like it cost 55k? I am just a working stiff in the Coast Guard trying to keep out waterways safe. As much as I love my Ric it still hurt my wallet to get mine used. I know a company that makes a product wants to sell it at a much higher cost that in was to make. Does anyone think 55k is a good or fair price? These a hard times and I like guitar and basses and would like to have one in every color and flavor, but I also like to eat an live under a roof. I will shut up for now and go away. Sorry I hurt some feeling in the thread not my intention.

[whojamfan]

Not Trolling. I am being totally serious. I just want to know what warrants a instrument maker charging 55 K for an instrument?

BECAUSE THEY CAN! Somewhere out there is that eccentric bazillionaire who will pony up that money for reasons that have nothing to do with sound or playability. I had a 50k custom shop Fender Nocaster in my store for a Fender day we used to have, and when no one was looking, I pulled it out of it's plexiglass display case and ripped "Complete Control" by the Clash on it, knowing full well it would probably be the only real playing it would get once it was sold. Did it play and sound relative to the price? Heck no, but deep in my mind was the satisfaction of knowing I could answer that question in the first person.

Somewhere, next to a Ming Dynasty Vase and Michael Jacksons original nose, sits this 50,000 dollar guitar locked in a display case prison never to know the joy of having a rock and roll band resonate off of it.

If your intent has been misunderstood, many apologies on behalf of the forum, but it still isn't very clear why you are so upset(apparantly) about signature guitars and what companies ask for them. If you build it, they will come, and so it stands to reason that if you ask for it, they will pay it. Personally, I would like to see 50 grand go to kids that went to bed without a meal last night, but that doesn't really seem to concern the folks that would rather buy something crazy just to annoy their accountants-or whatever.

It's all good, but we probably need to lock this one down now

[Clint]

Well said, I would just like to add (before the plug gets pulled on this) the same companies that are offering these high priced, custom shop, signature series guitars also offer several models under $1,000. It just ends up that everyone buys what they believe is the best guitar that they can afford. That may be a few hundred dollars, for most of us or $50,000 for a lucky few. While I believe people in that position could put their money to better use...

[08 Ric 4003]

My original grip about sig models were there are so many and many are named after guys I have never heard of. Like I said I have a BB King, but paid the same price as what ES-335 would cost. I am kind of a music snob but have been listening and loving and reading and learning about music since I was 8 and I am now 44. I listen to it all classical, jazz, rock, country, ect. I am not a rap or hip hop fan, just not my cup o'tea. And isn't a Les Paul already a sig model? It's wait for it - a "Les Paul" named after a guy who I am sure we have all heard of and can agree changed music and recording as we know it. I have been listening to some people say that some sig models are nothing more than regular models with a new pick guard, or color scheme, or a signature on it. I can not say weather they are or not. I know most cost more. I would like to think that the big companies have some integrity and don't jack up the price cause Pete, or Dave or Eric's name is on it, I am sure they do though. And yes a company can charge 55 k cause they want to. You are right there are guitars in everyone's price range. Had to throw a little sarcasm in just to get a laugh, hopefully. Ok I am done. Time to plug in. Going to see BB and Buddy Guy in a few weeks. Can't wait. Then it's the Drive By Truckers and the Master of the Stratocaster Robin Trower and then Jason Isbell who used to be in DBT.

Ho hard feeling. Keep on Jammin,

Joel