6 saddle bridge or 12 saddle, which works for you?

[rickplayer]

Now that horrible thumbnail.

[rickplayer]

Now, after my amateur-ish attemt at posting photos, you can see the difference. I love the intonated version of the guitar, but I could see how someone could like the stock version. I would think it is personal preference. I have to say after saving and waiting 6 months for my first RIC 12, I was blown away at how difficult it was to intonate. I had the Tom Petty which has a stock 12 saddle bridge. I had to remove the springs and shove the saddles all the way to the rear of the bridge. I loaned this guitar to a few friends to record with. If you were not used to the way to hold the guitar and the pressure required to make it stay in tune, you were F****d. I sold it in frustration. A few years later I got the chance to buy a 36012v64. It was a beauty! Mint! Still had the factory strings. I showed up to band practice and could not tune to the other players to save my life. You were fine with the high pairs, but finger a low e and !@#$@#$. Luckily through this site, I found Mark Arnquist who installed my bridge and intonated it. I now can use it to play on any song, cover or original. Strap on a capo, and it plays Hotel California, California Dreamin', or If I needed someone. No retuning required. Now, as far as Rickenbacker corporate is concerened, I have probably unintentionally ****** John Hall off so bad, that he wouldn't talk to me if I begged. But, if they want to hold the postion that stock RIC 12's are the perfect version, then so be it. This is America. We will just have to remember that a few small mods are required to make a great guitar better. Although I do not claim to have any measurable talent, I am using my RIC 12 on almost every track on my bands new CD. Since I have had the Arnquist mod, I am sure I am using the RIC 12 in ways not possible in the past. Good or bad. I really wish John Hall would check out my guitar. He might not change his postion, but I think deep inside he would be impressed at how well his product performs.

[ralph]

i totally agree with what john just said,
i had the same problem with my 360/12v64 &
sent it to mark to have rebuilt. now i can actually play along with other instruments
b-4 mod i couldn't even play a c chord

[stanley]

However, if one has one Rick that seems to intonate better with 6-saddle and one plays mostly open notes there may be less of a problem.

Trying to be devil's advocate. I am in no mood to find a Rick luthier to do that much work now that I finally got a new Rick. In any event I will eventually need a Rick luthier in the DC area. Anyone knows anybody?

Thanks

J

[johnashfield]

Does anyone at all have a 6 saddle bridge on a 12 string that intonates properly and plays in tune?

Anyone???

The Rickenbacker manual that came with the guitar and that is online states that the saddles for each string can be adjusted to ensure PERFECT intonation for each string. It says it in writing! There is no mention about the 12 string, or about how RIC thinks badly intoned guitars sound better.

I have not recieved any word back from RIC asking if my off center pickups are covered under warrenty.

Hand made guitars are a nice thing, but I think they'd still be hand made if they had a jig or something that would ensure that the pickups and bridges are aligned along the neck properly.

Again, does anyone have a 6 saddle bridge on a 12 string, and can they play the guitar in tune, in more than one key?

Rickenbacker is so well known for the 12 string, one would think that they would want to make sure their reputation as a quality instrument builder remained intact. The easiest way to so this is to put the 12 saddle bridge on all 12 strings right from start.

I don't buy the arguement that it's a preference issue. 12 string guitars play in octaves. Out of tune octaves sound bad. A guitar the won't intonate sounds out of tune. Can the people at RIC still hear?

[justonwo]

John,

This is an extremely sore subject on this board. Please email me at [email protected]. You are NOT going to find a sympathetic ear at Rickenbacker.

[leftybass]

My 1968 370/12 still has its 6-saddle bridge.

It stays in tune quite well. In playing it with others or by itself or along with records, it sounds just fine, whether its a bar-chord or cross-picking or open chording. Due to the profile of the fretboard it is difficult to capo--I haven't found a capo with the right curvature yet.

From what I have experienced with the two Rickenbacker 12-strings I own, gravity can sometimes play a big part in how it plays. Just a little tension the wrong way(like leaning your guitar against something with only the headstock and body providing resting points, and thus the weight not being evenly distributed) can throw it out. If it stays in the case or on a stand for extended periods of time it may take a bit of time to sort itself out, once you begin to play. This may sound a bit unscientific, but I've owned a McGuinn 370/12, which comes with the 12-saddle bridge--and between the 6 and the 12-saddle bridge the biggest difference I have noticed has been tonal, with steel saddles on the 12 vs. the aluminum saddles on the 6. From a historical standpoint we didn't have a 12-saddle bridge until 1987-88, when the 370/12RM was issued. Why not before?? Wouldn't these problems inherently exist since 1964?? By 1988, the Rickenbacker 12-string was on its 25th birthday. Both bridges do a marvelous job. 'You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe.' It is more of a tone question than intonation. Chime on!!!

[justonwo]

Well, I think a few issues are getting mixed up. Problem 1: The bridge is in the wrong location. In other words, it's too close to the nut and pulling the saddle back so it's pegged to the chassis still won't allow proper intonation. Problem 2: The 6 saddle bridge will only allow you to get *pretty close* to proper intonation. Anyone that owns a 6 saddle bridge will have to make a compromise between the standard string and its octave. THAT is more of a preference issue than the bridge being in the wrong spot. Regardless of whether or not you have a 12 saddle bridge, you won't be able to intonate at all if the bridge won't allow enough compensation. And these problems have existed since 1964 . . . Mark once posted that Roger McGuinn pointed out a few songs on Byrds albums where the guitar intonation was way off. Just because the guitars have traditionally been set up with a 6 saddle bridge, does not necessarily mean that's the ideal setup. There's always room for advancement.

[leftybass]

In Roger's video, there is a point in it where he discusses tuning his own 370/12RM..When tuning the top E and B pairs he tunes one string slightly flat on each pair, giving the guitar a pseudo-chorus 'chime' effect. This is HIS approach, and not the only way of course, but it seems by this example Roger isn't all too concerned with his own intonation. How perfect is perfect???? Is it in the ear of the beholder??

Hmmm.....

[admin]

Intonation problems have been around since the first guitar was made. While some instruments may be slightly out of intonation and tolerable to some, in the balance, poor intonation can be heard by most ears. I agree that there is always room for improvement when it comes to adjusting an instrument.

A 12 string bridge is going to better serve you on a 12 string guitar. It goes without saying that the proper placement of a bridge enables the saddles to provide maximum compenstation and hence the most efficient intonation.

Intonation is a matter of mathematics. Several algorithms may fall within the boundaries of an acceptable solution. The mathematical solutions are not a sore spot in this Forum. The manner in which the solutions are presented, however, may be.

[rickplayer]

Good point Peter. Sometimes typing words can come out more abrasive than they were intended. On that note (intonated of course!) I have Rogers video. His saddles are crammed all the way back, thus defeating the seperate saddles. Again, this may be a desired effect for him. Roger?????

[stanley]

If one buys a $2400.00 acoustic guitar it has a simple bridge with no saddles to screw around with. A cheap $99.00 Mexican guitar has adjustable saddles. What gives? How come Martin and Taylor do not make their guitars with such capabilities? I have a Gibson J160E that is not properly intonated, but I still use it. Most of the time I cannot hear the dissonances. However, there are some folks with great ability to detect pitch problems.

[leftybass]

Well, I have to wonder if this issue was ever presented to F.C. Hall way back when....one day we may know!!!!! (twilight zone theme...)

[profjeff]

Hi friends:

I'm always cautioning my doc students about the dangers of trying to isolate a single variable--or even a group of variables--that account for a phenomenon. In the real world, there many extraneous variables that are difficult or impossible to control.

Guitar setups are prone to extraneous variables as well. Something that appears to be so simple on the surface, such as intonation, becomes extremely complex when you factor in the extraneous variables. All of the following variables will have an impact on the accuracy of intonation on a guitar:

First, the strings travel through one, two, or three magnetic fields before reaching the bridge. These magnetic fields can be manipulated by adjusting the height of the pickups with a nearly infinite number of variations.

Second, there are all kinds of string guage combinations from many different manufacturers that can be fitted to a Rick 12 string. Furthermore, the consistency of string guages from the nut to the bridge may vary infinitely.

Third, the amount of relief in the neck is going to effect the length of the string from the nut to the bridge. The more releif, the shorter the length.

Fourth, the height of the strings at both the bridge and the nut will effect their overall length. Raise either of these and the string length from the nut to the bridge will get longer.

Fifth, the angle of the neck in its relationship to the top of the guitar will have an impact on string length.

Sixth, the amount of pressure that you place on the strings when you fret them is going to impact intonation. This is another continuous variable that has a nearly infinite number of levels.

Seventh, the amount of pressure that you put on the neck of your guitar with your fret hand becomes another continuous variable.

Eighth, and most importantly (and peplexing, I might add), all of these variables, plus many more that I have not even thought about, INTERACT making such a simple physics and math problem (intonation) difficult, at best, to solve.

So, in reality, we are dealing with a series of extraneous variables that often require compromise, as several of you have suggested, when we are setting up our guitars.

I opted to fit a 12 string saddle to my 360/12 because I knew that I would have alot more control over intonation of the octave strings (simple math and physics!). I made sure that the relief in my neck was the way I like it (very little!), and I adjusted my pickups to my personal tastes, and then I adjusted my string height before tackling the intonation issue.

I decided not to move my bridge plate because my intonation was fine without doing so. Yes, my low E string's saddle is close to the edge of the bridge, but I was able to get a small spring between it and the flange and still have the string intonate properly.

I check the intonation on occasion, usually when I change strings, and I am impressed with how unstable it is from string set to string set. I am sure that my strings pick up a small amount of magnetism over time and this can effect the stability of intonation. I am also certain that the relief in my neck is constantly changing (I live in Colorado where the humidity is extremely low).

Even with all of these issues, I love the sound of my 12 string Rick. It is never perfectly in tune and perfectly intonated (perfection is impossible in its truest sense), but a with good set of Pyramid strings and the 12 element saddle, I can get pretty darn close...without moving my bridge plate! I hate the thought of drilling holes in my guitar. I simply will not do it to s guitar for which I paid over a thousand dollars! If there is a problem that cannot be corrected to be within acceptable limits, the guitar goes back to the store. Those acceptable limits may vary from one individual to another. What is acceptable to me may not be acceptable to you.

Here is what I do know for sure. I have been reading the excellent text by Babiuk entitled "Beatles Gear" and what I find is that George Harrison loved is 12 string Rick. He was able to make great music with it, and he was not thwarted by intonation problems. I recently bought the Byrds' CD that was recorded live at the Fillmore in 1969. Again, the great 12 string playing of Roger McGuinn was not tainted by a guitar that suffered from intonation problems. These guitars make great music because, in the hands of competent musicians, they are FABULOUSLY designed and constructed guitars that have withstood the test of time. The Rick 330/340/360/370 gutars have an instantly recognizable trademark sound that transcends any inherent design problems.

I am all for doing the best setup work that I can, but at some point it becomes an unhealthy obsession that can easily overshadow the fact that I have a great guitar that deserves to be played and heard by others.

Here is a link to a photo of my 12 string bridge.

http://www.coe.unco.edu/jeffbauer/bridge.jpg

Sorry for the length of this post--professors are notoriously long winded with little of value to say. I am no exception:-)

--jeff

http://home.attbi.com/~drjeffreyb

[justonwo]

Despite all of those seemingly complex phenomenae, it remains possible on just about every high quality guitar to get near-perfect intonation. Was it merely fortuitous that I was able to intonate my guitar perfectly after moving my bridge? I don't deny that Rickenbackers are great guitars; that's why I bought one in the first place. However, I do believe there is a problem with proper bridge placement on many guitars (perhaps you were lucky enough to have a bridge that allows proper compensation). I received the same explanation from John Hall: there are far too many variables for you to understand why we place the bridge the way we do. And yet, by some statistical abberation, many on this board have been able to get an atonal guitar to intonate perfectly simply by giving themselves enough room to adjust the compensation. While it is important never to oversimplify a physics problem, it is equally important to recognize which variables in a given system are likely to be unimportant (or marginally important) so as not to over-complicate the problem to the point of unsolvability. While I will agree that all the above variables play a role in a guitar's overall intonation, I would say their cumulative effect is still ancillary to the compensation. It never ceases to amaze me that, even after so many people post the EXACT SAME COMPLAINT on this board, there still exists are large contingent of people who refuse to believe there may be a problem (and a very fixable problem at that) with Rickenbacker 12 strings. Why this complaint is met with such animosity by the folks at Rickenbacker is also beyond me.