Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

Most blues progressions are I IV V (thanks for the notation Ted) major with "blue" notes which are thirds usually bent between minor and major but the underlying chords in a standard blues are all variations of major chords or implications of major chords. Blues can be funny because of that implied feeling.
I assumed you new Charlie that the third was raised on a sus chord, it's flatted for a minor and only one third is played at a time unless you are going into jazz territory. I tend to forget that not everyone here plays guitar also. I wouldn't even touch that III part of the chord on the bass, Jemmott doesn't. He sticks with the root and does both high octave and low on the sus. A lot of blues is played up an octave with a boomy tone.
I'm playing it right now on the turntable, it's in the key of Bm but the bass player is playing all over the place, both majors and minors. The "raised" 5th is a G, then goes down to F#sus and the bass's first note is the high octave F# and his second is the low octave F#. Playing just a minor scale will not work on this song, you'd have to hear it as he does both. His grace notes into the 1 and V are majors but the rest of his runs are minor, this bass line is very distinctive and I have not heard many bass players play it correct as he plays a lot of 1/8 notes, it is a little funky.

Blues that goes into a "minor" key alter a lot of rules, and admit several tweaks to the standard "major" harmony...

First of all, when you're in a minor key the 3rd is default a minor third, so I-III as the classical analysts describe things is different from I-III in a major key...usually I use things based on a major scale for defining the intervals between chords-for a long time I denied that minor keys even exist, but grudgingly I've accepted that sometimes you have to describe a song as being in one. Long side issue there.

But anyway, my point was that the in the Bm, you can look at the G as a raised 5th, but if you look at the key as being B minor the G simply is the sixth. Or if you stick your head in the sand like I used to do I'd claim the song is really in D major, just centered on the relative minor...

And also, with B as your tonic (regardless of calling it major or minor), a chord called "G" would be a sixth of some sort...the "raised fifth" would properly get the name Fx (F double-sharp). Hairsplitting I know.

What Bob says about the "blue" note is an even further distortion of blues/rock, going beyond the twelve tone systen and getting microtonal. Blue notes lead to the 7#9 type chords (E7#9 is E-G#-B-D-Fx; F double-sharp = G natural enharmonically). A difficulty with "music-theory" is that things like double sharps crop up, when most players, if they even know the notes are going to think of that #9 as a G.

But if you look at the blues/rock tune that starts on a C7 and is clearly centered on C, what can you say about the Eb notes that pepper the the melody over that C? Yes, they are blue notes...they imply that you can improvise on a C Blues scale (the 1/2 note tensions are vital to the movement of the harmony)...and in a way you can look at the Eb as being the 7th (flat seventh relative to a major scale of the IV chord (F7). So that blues/rock song that starts off with 16 bars of C7 shuffle and has a prominent Blue note in the melody, where's it likely to go next? F7, that's where. The "blue note" is pushing that case.

Most blues progressions are I-IV-V, but there are twists that show up a lot, and the number of 12 bar patterns is probably infinite. One of my favorites for discussing theory is Stormy Monday, which never really gets to a true V (there is an augmented V), and puts in [G - Am - Bm - Bb - Am - Cm] line...which could be Nashville notated as

I - ii - iii - bIII - ii- iv

Which i clever blending of some standard major harmony (I - ii - iii), borrowed chords from sub-dominants (the Bb, bIII), and a parallel minor (I guess that's how it's called) on the four chord (the Cm)...IMO it's that Cm chord that allows total avoidance of a standard V chord ending the progression (it ends on a D+).

IMO all of this discussion can tangent out so many ways, harmony, scale/mode choices for improvising, song structure, relationships between root movement and harmony/melody issues.

Such fertile discussion topics can be derived from blues and rock. Sorry you guys got me babbling.

haha, what???

This is way cool stuff. I don't fully grasp all of the stuff you've laid out. I need to srudy on it for a bit. It is intersting that most of you talk about the "blue" notes telling you where the next chord is. THat's where I want to get to. I NEED to know what comes next, and every time I try to work out a song with the circle of fifths, they evidently substitute or ? and I only last two or three chords and then it doesn't seem to fit the circle. I guess what I'm saying is, it seems that although there are rules, a lot of them are broken to good effect?

Blues is mostly a feel with three chords, it's about playing in the pocket. Most of the early blues masters wouldn't have known what the circle of fifths was unless it was a circle of fifths of whiskey. Many of the classic blues things started out as mistakes or just plain laziness. Jimmy Reed's guitar player played the V in the key of E with the A string open which really was a mistake but it has become a standard thing to play in blues for example. Then there is the quick V in which they only play one bar of V instead of two and I'm sure someone did that to fit a lyric in or something, then other people pick up on it and it becomes a standard blues thing.

It really doesn't tell, but a lot of songs will follow those patterns. And at the root of it all (sorry about the pun) blues/rock are pretty simple forms.

In a lot of ways, "classical" music is just as predictable and simple. There's just lots of notes...

I guess the way I see it, you have "classical" theory, which revolves around the major scale and the V-I resolution, then you have blues/rock theory, which revolves around the I-IV cadence, and freely mixes modes. A lot of things that were considered harsh sounding and "improper" 200-400 years ago are freely used today.

But since the I-IV cadence is also the V-I in the complimentary key (i.e. C-F is a I-IV in C, but a V-I in F), the two "theories" certainly overlap, and classical, or major, or strict harmony (IMO basically meaning I- ii - iii - IV, in C C -Dm - Em - F) crops up very often in blues/rock.

The real breakthrough is that in blues/rock you can "go both ways" and rely on either "minor borrowing" or "going the wrong way on the circle of fifths", or fall back on the old harmonies. An example of strict major harmony is "Like a Rolling Stone" by Bob Dylan...



Oh yeah, Bob is right. The pocket, simplicity...all play a role in things. Feel is VERY important, and one thing that "music theory" falls short on is a critical part of music: RHYTHM.

Rhythm constrains you and it sets you free, and feeling it is the best way to do it. But that too can be attacked analytically, far more predictably than harmony...but in the end you can feel it and let it fly, or you can't.

Gotta get my **** together and head out for a gig! Life is pretty good!

The thing that keeps me going and puts a smile on my face is, I had to audition for those few lessons I had with Carol Kaye. She had her jazz guitar and started playing all these jazz chords. I told her I can't play by ear and she said, I don't care, I want to hear your timing. So I played along missing more than a few changes. SHe finally put down her guitar and said, OK, I can work with you, you have good time! Then she went on to explain that she can teach everything but timing.

It was sad to only get a few lessons from her before the earthquake scared her away from the area.

Sorry for the double post, I just had to hit triple digits!

Well, not strictly a double post, more of a......
sorry, can't think of a name for it.

The multiple posts have "raised" you (sorry, couldn't resist) from Advanced Member to Senior Member

If I'm a Senior member after 100, are those guys with 3000+ Uber members? Sorry no umlaut(sp?). With a last name like mine, you'd think I'd know!

The thing with blues.....it's all about the space "between "the notes.


I have done some studies of Willie Dixon and there are times I question his note selection....but never his feel.


( I wish that I could hit a clanger with half of that conviction....)

I'm witcha on the space. That's where the pro's live! BB has way more space than Alvin Lee, and who makes his guitar cry and sing? Of course, that vibrato with his hand has a little to do with it!!!!

Ed, this is a great discussion. I love coming here just to learn new things. I understand the basic theory behind the Nashville notation system (I think), but is there anything I can get to help me learn how to use it/read it?

It took me a while to realize how good Willy Dixon was, he knew every note he was going to play, he wrote the book on blues bass.