And You are right, friend Brian, as far as it goes.
Seems like this was technically a new guitar, but stretching that descriptor about as far as can be with mitigating circumstances...
I bought my 660/12 from dealer stock. It was 9 months old at the time, a fact which was not disclosed to me pre-purchase (why would it be?) The guitar was beautiful (a MB COY), but grain was rather straight, possibly explaining the long in-stock time. I got it in via FedEx and after waiting a couple of days for the temp to normalize, gave it a good inspection. Somebody had messed with the action, there were some small buckle scratches on the back, and no keys to the case. I corrected all these faults (except the keys) myself. Still, technically, a "new" guitar.
Another stretch to the "new" definition, but one we have to live with sometimes when buying an in-demand item from dealer's stock. By the time I bought my second new Rick a month later, I knew which questions to ask, and my matching MB 381V69--from a different dealer--was spot-on and perfect.
NOS? Confused.....
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jingle_jangle
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Paul,I suspect and in fact firmly believe that the experience you had when you bought your 660 is not the norm.
I also suspect that Howards' experience could be categorized as extraordinary as well.
I also suspect that Howards' experience could be categorized as extraordinary as well.
“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” - Albert Einstein
"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother" - Albert Einstein
"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother" - Albert Einstein
Nothing personal taken, Paul, and I agree with you that a guitar is by definition "new" until purchased by an end user - this was discussed in another thread some time ago and my opinion on that has not changed.
I also agree with Brian as far as the marks on the neck and the condition of the strings perhaps making this a display or 'demo' model rather than one that is virtually 'off the boat'. At no stage was I informed of the guitar's history, which I think is pretty poor form, given that I have spent $25,000 plus with this particular dealer since February. Obviously I was never offered the right of refusal.
I'm not so much concerned about the age of the "new" guitar. My concern relates more to where and in what environment the guitar has been stored and how much and what type of freight it has been subjected to. If the dealer is telling me the truth, then the guitar has already travelled well over 2000 miles in Australia with unknown freight companies. If the guitar had spent 18 months at Rickenbacker or in the distributor's warehouse I would not be concerned, but not knowing the raw details bothers me because of the potential issues later on if it has been subjected to extreme temperatures or rapid changes in them. I feel I am entitled to know, given that it is at best "new old stock". I consider myself a reasonable person who is not prone to flying into fits of rage like some others that I know of. I am a firm believer in giving people opportunites to explain and justify before taking matters further.
That is the essence of the email that I have sent to the distributor, who has not replied to date. He may well say "Does it matter? The guitar is warranted from date of delivery". To that I would answer "Not necessarily, but if issues do arise, who will do the repairs and what guarantees would I have afterwards, given that they will not be done by the manufacturer?".
I don't think that's an unreasonable question to ask, as I hardly think that RIC or the dealer will spend a minimum of $500USD in freight for a warranty repair.
Er.... excuse me while I go and play it again.......
I also agree with Brian as far as the marks on the neck and the condition of the strings perhaps making this a display or 'demo' model rather than one that is virtually 'off the boat'. At no stage was I informed of the guitar's history, which I think is pretty poor form, given that I have spent $25,000 plus with this particular dealer since February. Obviously I was never offered the right of refusal.
I'm not so much concerned about the age of the "new" guitar. My concern relates more to where and in what environment the guitar has been stored and how much and what type of freight it has been subjected to. If the dealer is telling me the truth, then the guitar has already travelled well over 2000 miles in Australia with unknown freight companies. If the guitar had spent 18 months at Rickenbacker or in the distributor's warehouse I would not be concerned, but not knowing the raw details bothers me because of the potential issues later on if it has been subjected to extreme temperatures or rapid changes in them. I feel I am entitled to know, given that it is at best "new old stock". I consider myself a reasonable person who is not prone to flying into fits of rage like some others that I know of. I am a firm believer in giving people opportunites to explain and justify before taking matters further.
That is the essence of the email that I have sent to the distributor, who has not replied to date. He may well say "Does it matter? The guitar is warranted from date of delivery". To that I would answer "Not necessarily, but if issues do arise, who will do the repairs and what guarantees would I have afterwards, given that they will not be done by the manufacturer?".
I don't think that's an unreasonable question to ask, as I hardly think that RIC or the dealer will spend a minimum of $500USD in freight for a warranty repair.
Er.... excuse me while I go and play it again.......
"Never eat more than you can lift." - Mr. Moon
I take heed of both Paul and Brian's theology,but....Being a mate of Howard's, and an Aussie one at that, it's a bit rough!
Aitch has,as he states, spent over 25 big ones with this dealer, in a very short period of time.
It's poor form at it's worst to try and slug him with something, in my mind, he didn't order.
Correct me if i'm wrong Howard, but didn't you order a "brand new" 360 earlier this year?
Did you receive a "brand new" 360?
I think not.
If you had oredered a "brand new" 360 this year, how can they pass off a 2004 model as such?
I'm a reasonable person, but i'll fly into fits of rage for you Aitch!...just ask!
Even if "technically" this is a new guitar , morally it is not!
Surely the 360 you originally ordered from the factory must be not too far away!
Aitch has,as he states, spent over 25 big ones with this dealer, in a very short period of time.
It's poor form at it's worst to try and slug him with something, in my mind, he didn't order.
Correct me if i'm wrong Howard, but didn't you order a "brand new" 360 earlier this year?
Did you receive a "brand new" 360?
I think not.
If you had oredered a "brand new" 360 this year, how can they pass off a 2004 model as such?
I'm a reasonable person, but i'll fly into fits of rage for you Aitch!...just ask!
Even if "technically" this is a new guitar , morally it is not!
Surely the 360 you originally ordered from the factory must be not too far away!
Thank you for your support, Greg. As you say, I have not received what I ordered. However I will wait a little longer for contact from the owner of the distribution company. If that is not forthcoming within what I consider to be a reasonable time I will attempt to speak with him on the phone. Failing that, it's the next link down the chain - the sales manager. Depending on the response, I'll consider my options.
I guess I could do any of the following:
1. Let it go and enjoy my "new" guitar.
2. Take the guitar back to the dealer, ask for the balance back that I paid on Saturday, leave the deposit standing and wait.
3. Take the guitar back and ask for a total refund - which he may refuse to do. This will, of course, put me at the back of the queue with whichever dealer I choose to order another one from (assuming there is still no stock anywhere in Australia).
The more I think about it the more disappointed I am with the dealer principal. It's not so much the money I have spent with them - I have taken their advice regularly and I felt that there was a good, trusting relationship there. I've never screwed them on price and have always accepted any discounts offered without haggling. If the truth be known, I've probably paid over the odds on more than a few purchases, but that's my problem, not theirs. The sales guys are all OK - they just do what they are told. It's the boss that's the focus of my feelings.
Hmmmm.........!!!!
I guess I could do any of the following:
1. Let it go and enjoy my "new" guitar.
2. Take the guitar back to the dealer, ask for the balance back that I paid on Saturday, leave the deposit standing and wait.
3. Take the guitar back and ask for a total refund - which he may refuse to do. This will, of course, put me at the back of the queue with whichever dealer I choose to order another one from (assuming there is still no stock anywhere in Australia).
The more I think about it the more disappointed I am with the dealer principal. It's not so much the money I have spent with them - I have taken their advice regularly and I felt that there was a good, trusting relationship there. I've never screwed them on price and have always accepted any discounts offered without haggling. If the truth be known, I've probably paid over the odds on more than a few purchases, but that's my problem, not theirs. The sales guys are all OK - they just do what they are told. It's the boss that's the focus of my feelings.
Hmmmm.........!!!!
"Never eat more than you can lift." - Mr. Moon
Aitch, My negotiation, mediation, litigation, conciliation and arbitration services are at your disposal mate! I'd love to talk to them about their possible breach of the Trade Practices Act as well as their possible breach of contract with you. Tell them you have contacts within the ACCC. Let me at 'em (insert audio clip of growling rottweiller here!).
'59 425, '59 335, '60 335, '60 360, '60 335F, '60 345F, '64 RM 1999, '65 RM 1998, '65 360-12, '66 335, '67 450-12, '72 4001 '72 4001, '75 4000, '75 4000CS, '00 700S, '01 700C, '01 700S-12, '01 730S-FH, '06 660 DCM
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jingle_jangle
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Aitch, there's no question that you got the short end of the Rickenstick here. Considering that you have spent 25 large with this dealership, I believe his ethics were misplaced, possibly in a large satchel formerly used to house his soul, weighted down with rocks, and dumped in the deepest part of the Yarra.
Brian, I completely, dogmatically, religiously am convinced to the edges of my immortal soul that neither Aitch nor I got a fair shake on these deals--Aitch's was ten months worse, so the prize goes Ozward. I've heard worse, but agree that most go better.
Diagram THAT sentence, as Sister Mary Loquacia was fond of saying in third grade...
Brian, I completely, dogmatically, religiously am convinced to the edges of my immortal soul that neither Aitch nor I got a fair shake on these deals--Aitch's was ten months worse, so the prize goes Ozward. I've heard worse, but agree that most go better.
Diagram THAT sentence, as Sister Mary Loquacia was fond of saying in third grade...
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Howard, one other thing to consider. I had heard that a dealer had gone bust, primarily because he had also been a producer of porno films and business had, uh, gone soft. If you guitar came from there, one might wonder where it previously could have been pressed into service.
More seriously, you might want to point out to Mr. T. (or his brother Peter, the sales manager) that it would be to their benefit to resolve this to your satisfaction promptly so I don't have to raise the issue with them in January when they visit me during the NAMM show begging for more guitars.
More seriously, you might want to point out to Mr. T. (or his brother Peter, the sales manager) that it would be to their benefit to resolve this to your satisfaction promptly so I don't have to raise the issue with them in January when they visit me during the NAMM show begging for more guitars.
Whoa!! I'm trying to get an explanation here, not raise merry hell! Thanks for the offers of assistance and should things get to that stage I may seek it. At this stage I'd like to give the other parties an opportunitly to redress the situation prior to considering other options.
Interesting combination, John. Now I'm worried about what might have been done with the 'R' tailpiece!!
I share your thoughts about the 'softly' approach, Stan, and that's the way I'm dealing with it at present. The use of the words 'ethics' and 'morally' in this thread pretty much sum up the entire affair. I'm upset more by the fact that there was an attempt (deliberate in my opinion) to "pull the wool over my eyes" through my not being told the guitar's age or history. Did they honestly think that I would ignore the serial number or the date on the warranty card and subsequently not ask questions?
I will be taking the guitar to work with me today so that I'm in a position to return it to the dealer should it become necessary.
I'll be dropping in anyway, to talk to the principal and express my feelings in no uncertain terms and leave him in no doubt that I believe he has acted unethically in this instance.
Interesting combination, John. Now I'm worried about what might have been done with the 'R' tailpiece!!
I share your thoughts about the 'softly' approach, Stan, and that's the way I'm dealing with it at present. The use of the words 'ethics' and 'morally' in this thread pretty much sum up the entire affair. I'm upset more by the fact that there was an attempt (deliberate in my opinion) to "pull the wool over my eyes" through my not being told the guitar's age or history. Did they honestly think that I would ignore the serial number or the date on the warranty card and subsequently not ask questions?
I will be taking the guitar to work with me today so that I'm in a position to return it to the dealer should it become necessary.
I'll be dropping in anyway, to talk to the principal and express my feelings in no uncertain terms and leave him in no doubt that I believe he has acted unethically in this instance.
"Never eat more than you can lift." - Mr. Moon
Sounds like a plan to me, Aitch. You're handling it in the right way IMO. And yes, they obviously did think you might ignore the serial number. Why else, as best as I can determine, would they have sold it to you under the pretense it was fresh off the production line?
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Music is too important to be left to professionals.
Music is too important to be left to professionals.
We have a result! Please forgive me for being long-winded about this but I believe that there may be a message here for some.
I went to the store this evening with the guitar and asked the dealer principal if I could have a chat. I then presented my case and the arguments supporting it. It appeared that I did well in that regard, as an apology was immediately forthcoming as well as a willingness to redress the situation and an obvious desire to retain my custom.
End of phase 1 - good vibes.
After being asked what my expectations were in regard to rectifying the situation I suggested that it would be far more appropriate if he presented to me his thoughts. "Whatever it takes" was the reply, and I further suggested that he might like some time to consider some options.
End of phase 2 - still good vibes.
He then presented me with 4 (yes, four) options:
1 - A total refund.
2 - Refund of the balance paid on Saturday, leaving the deposit to stand on a new guitar.
3 - A more than reasonable credit to my Visa account.
4 - A substantially larger store credit, to be used whenever I see fit.
Plus, should I choose to keep the guitar, two free adjustments and setups on the guitar in question over the next 6 months. Oh, and a new set of strings, no arguments!
End of phase 3 - excellent vibes!.
I now have as much time as I need to consider those options and advise him of my decision.
Needless to say, I am delighted that he has both admitted his error and shown a great desire to ensure that I receive total satisfaction. My faith in the dealership and its principal have been restored and I will now happily continue to recommend them without reservation.
One interesting statement from him was "While you're considering it, I'll even let you take the guitar home". My response to that was "Damned right! I currently own the bloody thing!!"
Not so keen was the distributor (Mr. T.) who only responded by email after my attempt to contact him by phone and leaving a message. He saw fit not to return my call, but send me a short email stating the facts (that I was already aware of) and congratulating me on becoming a Rick convert - it was patronising to say the least. No offers forthcoming. I did respond telling him that that's all very nice, but he had failed to address my specific concerns. I also asked him whether he was happy selling a "not new" guitar as "new" and suggested that he could view that question from either a legal or ethical aspect - his choice. I don't expect any further comnmunication from him, given the fact that the dealer has addressed the situation. No doubt they will talk tomorrow and I sincerely hope that the distributor comes to the party and shares some of the expense. I'm inclined to doubt it.....
This episode once again reinforces my opinion that a 'softly softly' approach in the first instance will achieve far more than an angry, confrontational one.
With that in mind..... Aitch's guide to successful negotiation:
1 - Be sure of your facts before commencing.
2 - Try to present your case in full before inviting a response - you may forget something later on.
3 - Suppress any anger that you may have until such time as it becomes (in your mind) necessary.
4 - Keep your voice at an even level and do not talk down to the other party.
5 - Retain your nerve and try not be intimidated. Stand up for what you believe are your rights.
6 - Remain confident in the fact that you have a genuine grievance.
7 - Suggest rather than demand.
8 - At all times act in a conciliatory and civil manner.
9 - Don't be afraid to agree with the other party if they present you with something that is indisputable - it doesn't diminish your case.
10 - As far as possible, keep it light-hearted. If something funny is said or done, don't suppress your amusement. It can often be the temporary release that both parties need.
11 - Don't allow your feeings to deafen you. You must listen to (and take in) what the other party has to say.
12 - Never stoop to personal abuse - it gets you nowhere. On the other hand, never accept it - be prepared to stop the conversation cold until a more reasonable tone is evident.
And finally (and I believe most importantly), never, ever 'fly off the handle' in fits of rage in the first instance. It indicates an unwillingness to negotiate and instantly places a barrier between yourself and the other party. Added to that, it leaves you with an empty chamber and no spare ammunition at the end!
Here endeth the thoughts of Aitch.....
Oh, and by the way, John, please give Marcello a huge pat on the back when you see him at NAMM in January. He is one of your greatest allies and deserves it!
I went to the store this evening with the guitar and asked the dealer principal if I could have a chat. I then presented my case and the arguments supporting it. It appeared that I did well in that regard, as an apology was immediately forthcoming as well as a willingness to redress the situation and an obvious desire to retain my custom.
End of phase 1 - good vibes.
After being asked what my expectations were in regard to rectifying the situation I suggested that it would be far more appropriate if he presented to me his thoughts. "Whatever it takes" was the reply, and I further suggested that he might like some time to consider some options.
End of phase 2 - still good vibes.
He then presented me with 4 (yes, four) options:
1 - A total refund.
2 - Refund of the balance paid on Saturday, leaving the deposit to stand on a new guitar.
3 - A more than reasonable credit to my Visa account.
4 - A substantially larger store credit, to be used whenever I see fit.
Plus, should I choose to keep the guitar, two free adjustments and setups on the guitar in question over the next 6 months. Oh, and a new set of strings, no arguments!
End of phase 3 - excellent vibes!.
I now have as much time as I need to consider those options and advise him of my decision.
Needless to say, I am delighted that he has both admitted his error and shown a great desire to ensure that I receive total satisfaction. My faith in the dealership and its principal have been restored and I will now happily continue to recommend them without reservation.
One interesting statement from him was "While you're considering it, I'll even let you take the guitar home". My response to that was "Damned right! I currently own the bloody thing!!"
Not so keen was the distributor (Mr. T.) who only responded by email after my attempt to contact him by phone and leaving a message. He saw fit not to return my call, but send me a short email stating the facts (that I was already aware of) and congratulating me on becoming a Rick convert - it was patronising to say the least. No offers forthcoming. I did respond telling him that that's all very nice, but he had failed to address my specific concerns. I also asked him whether he was happy selling a "not new" guitar as "new" and suggested that he could view that question from either a legal or ethical aspect - his choice. I don't expect any further comnmunication from him, given the fact that the dealer has addressed the situation. No doubt they will talk tomorrow and I sincerely hope that the distributor comes to the party and shares some of the expense. I'm inclined to doubt it.....
This episode once again reinforces my opinion that a 'softly softly' approach in the first instance will achieve far more than an angry, confrontational one.
With that in mind..... Aitch's guide to successful negotiation:
1 - Be sure of your facts before commencing.
2 - Try to present your case in full before inviting a response - you may forget something later on.
3 - Suppress any anger that you may have until such time as it becomes (in your mind) necessary.
4 - Keep your voice at an even level and do not talk down to the other party.
5 - Retain your nerve and try not be intimidated. Stand up for what you believe are your rights.
6 - Remain confident in the fact that you have a genuine grievance.
7 - Suggest rather than demand.
8 - At all times act in a conciliatory and civil manner.
9 - Don't be afraid to agree with the other party if they present you with something that is indisputable - it doesn't diminish your case.
10 - As far as possible, keep it light-hearted. If something funny is said or done, don't suppress your amusement. It can often be the temporary release that both parties need.
11 - Don't allow your feeings to deafen you. You must listen to (and take in) what the other party has to say.
12 - Never stoop to personal abuse - it gets you nowhere. On the other hand, never accept it - be prepared to stop the conversation cold until a more reasonable tone is evident.
And finally (and I believe most importantly), never, ever 'fly off the handle' in fits of rage in the first instance. It indicates an unwillingness to negotiate and instantly places a barrier between yourself and the other party. Added to that, it leaves you with an empty chamber and no spare ammunition at the end!
Here endeth the thoughts of Aitch.....
Oh, and by the way, John, please give Marcello a huge pat on the back when you see him at NAMM in January. He is one of your greatest allies and deserves it!
"Never eat more than you can lift." - Mr. Moon
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tony_carey
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Thank you very much, Tony. I am not one for fights - in fact I have been guilty in the past of 'laying down'. I was determined to be reasonable and non-confrontatinal in the hope that he would be the same. And he was!!
Unfortunately I sometimes have to deal with dissatisfied clients, but the up side of that is that I have experience on 'both sides of the fence' as it were. Gives me a more balanced perspective, I think...........
Unfortunately I sometimes have to deal with dissatisfied clients, but the up side of that is that I have experience on 'both sides of the fence' as it were. Gives me a more balanced perspective, I think...........
"Never eat more than you can lift." - Mr. Moon