Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

Jason: I may be not too familiar with Western contemporary system, but i just got too much used to mols and durs, and H for Si / B for Si mol (flat). Hope it wouldn't be too bad of me to keep on using those "terms"? I just cannot promise i'll be able to "rebuild" my way of thinking in a short time...
(I know how old Brian is, BTW. I won't say it now, but believe me, he's not old enough to have faced what was going on in 18th Century, i must say. Oops. I didn't say that.)
So, back to the topic (kinda): what other key switch tricks do you know about, guys? I've recalled a song which had a switch from Re minor to La minor, and another which went from Fa minor to Re minor and back to Fa minor through Fa major. Any others?..

Sheena,
I think it's okay for you to continue to use the nomenclature you are familiar with. For the benefit of others, though, let's post a quick guide to conversion here:
C = Do
D = Re
E = Mi
F = Fa
G = So (or Sol)
A = La
American B = Russian Si (or H)
American B flat = Russian Si mol (or B)
mol = flat
dur = sharp (?)
Whew! I think I got it. It is a little tricky. Okay, it is a lot tricky.

And Brian, I have no idea what your age is, so I'm a little confused. What I like about this forum is the "age anonymity," unless you look at profiles, which I do from time to time.

Look for a related thread all about solfedge. I'll title it "Fixed or Movable Do?"

What also confuses me about the chords, BTW: what's the difference between "regular" A and Amaj? I mean, how do maj chords are constructed?
(to clear up the confusion, Jason: Brian is 29 1/2 years older than me, and i'm gonna hit twenty eight in 9 days. But remember, i didn't say that!)
And BTW, i never looked at Do, Re, Mi, etc system as Russian, i thought it's universal ("classic"?). There's another "chord system" as well, where notes are indicated by numbers - 1 for C/Do etc. Here, the chords look like 6m (m for minor), 25c (c for major), etc. That one is really tricky, at least for me!

You're right, Sheena, it is universal, not just Russian. But I don't think anyone else will be using the letter H, so I wanted to clarify that.

The "regular" chord is major.
A =
Amaj =
A C# E =
La Do# Mi

What is 25? This is getting really interesting!

Um, 25c was just for example, i'm not sure which one it really is, looks like it's G7 with an additional d note (sorry for misleading - b goes for major and c for sept chords, just checked the book), though not sure (as i said, this system is somehow beyond my understanding). In that system, 1 is for C, 2 for D, 3 for E, 4 for F etc. So, a "plain" chord looks like 2m or 2c. If we add a note, for example g on 6th string for C chord (1b in that notation), then we'll get 51b. Plain and simple, ha-ha. Sorry, i've spent a few months trying to understand that system, and i'm rather laughing at myself.

I always try to accomodate the vocalist. The singer needs to be comfortable if they are to deliver a song with any real conviction. If that means changing the key, I'll do it on the spot in most cases. Many guitar oriented songs will take a key change well. Some simply will not.

It's important to understand what the key of a song actually is if you're going to comp around or solo on it. One of the most common mistakes I hear is people playing a solo in Sweet Home Alabama in the key of D. The song, although it starts on D, is actually in the key of G and soloing out of a G major pentatonic scale sounds infinitely better than the solos I've heard played in D. It really does pay to know what key you're actually playing in.

I had a key, but I had to split it with the sound man...

You know, Bob...I once accommodated a vocalist so much I wound up married to her for five years...

Among other things, I got tired of always having to change my keys...

I think it behooves anyone who plays to learn how to play in any key. I also accommodate the vocalist and actually will ask them to start the song a cappella if they do not know the correct key for the song. I pick up the key by ear then tell everyone else if they haven't gotten it and then start the song. I am house bass player for a blues jam and have done this for many years.

Right on Bob. There's nothing worse than listening to a singer struggle with a song in the wrong key for them.

I had an audition a couple years ago and was informed that the girl singing liked everything to be in Ab. "Everything?" I asked in horror.

needless to say, I never went on the audition. Some people can take this to extremes.

Good points, Telebob. My personal preference is to call the key by its tonic. In the case of S.H.Alabama this is D, but we have C chords instead of D's usual A chord. So now we would be getting into 'modes.' In this particular case, we have D, borrowing the key signature from G (one sharp only) so it is D Mixolydian. Our ears are still directed toward D as the root note, but the key signature comes from another key.

Simplified: D Mixolydian = D Major with a lowered 7th, hence the C rather than the C#.

I've met so many people who really fear/dread learning modes. Irrational, if you ask me!

I was just introduced into the world of modes this past week.

Super Simplified:
Here are some modes that all have the same key: No sharps and no flats:
C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian
Here's another way to think of it:
Ionian: Major
Dorian: minor with a sharp 6th
Phrygian: minor with a flat 2nd
Lydian: Major with a sharp 4th
Mixolydian: Major with a flat 7th
Aeolian: minor
Locrian: minor with a flat 2nd and flat 5th (very weird)

Alisha, tell us more. How were you introduced to modes this week? Like at a party?

When I look at a tune like Sweet Home Alabama I see 3 major chords. When I organize this numerically it suggests G to me for two reasons.

As I see it:
1 = major
2 = minor
3 = minor
4 = major
5 = dominant
6 = minor
7 = m7b5

In G you would then have the following chord scale: G Am Bm C D7 Em F#m7b5

In the context of a D major scale the G chord appears as a 4/major but the note C is absent. When the D ionian is played over the progression, the notes B and C# imply either a M7 or a #9 as played against the C chord. It doesn't work too well.

When I look at it from the perspective of G as my "1" chord, then C follows suit as my "4" and D follows as my "5". In this instance the G major scale, or better yet, G pentatonic major scale fits very well.

The other reason I like G is because the song it's self spends an extra measure on G every time around. Playing the solo in the G context over the two bars of G makes for a great "tension/release" spot for phrasing.

I am not very well versed in theory, but this approach has served me well when I need to understand what key I'm playing in.

In another example, I would also say that "All Along the Watchtower" is also in G. (If you're playing it as Em D C that is) Soloing over it from the perspective of G insures that the note C and not C# makes it into the scale. Of course E is the root tone and the astute observer will soon see that it this really is an E aeolian scale, but hey, ya gotta get there somehow. I find this method to be easiest. Once you hear the difference, you suddenly begin to notice just how many people use the wrong scale over this type of progression. The C# or natural 6 really grates against that C chord.