Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

For even MORE practical use, it would be better to buy a Traynor YVC40 or YCV20 for a fraction of the Mesa Booger price. If you want to blow money on tone, do it where it counts like in Tung-Sol 5881 or RCA 6L6GC output tubes, HEXFRED's, Mullard GZ34's, Celestion Vintage 30's, some super selected audio preamp tubes from Vintage Tube Services, a nice Rickenbacker, better strings, etc. Randall Smith himself probably wouldn't want that amp at half the asking price even if it actually is one of his early efforts and he needed it for a Mesa museum.

If anybody actually wants that electronic Frankenstein, why not get an old Princeton and do the mods yourself for about a tenth of the asking price?

That amp price probably isn't any worse than Gibson's MSRP of $6959 for a 1959 Les Paul Standard reissue. You expect insanity from certain deranged individuals, but what excuse does a large company like Gibson have? Do Gibson executives smoke wacky tabacky at board meetings or something? The Les Paul reissue is probably inferior to my RIC 650D that cost less than a tenth of Gibson's MSRP on the Les Paul. And that Frankenstein amp is probably inferior to a Traynor (or many others) in the tone department as well.

Carlos Santana would probably bless my Traynor YCV40 outfitted with Tung-Sol 5881 tubes if he ever played it. It blows my Marshall AVT50 away, no contest. Not even close. Who cares anyway if Randall Smith MAYBE designed that Frankenstein amp as one of his early EXPERIMENTAL efforts, my Traynor YCV40 WAS designed by Peter Traynor himself after years of experience as his best EXPERIENCIAL effort. And it shows.

For only about $500 street price!

But you're talking apples and oranges. That modded Princeton, if it's real, would only be bought at anywhere near that price by a collector for his collection. The Traynor is a popular-priced amp you buy to actually play.

Price considerations aside, I like the Mesas better than the Traynors. Strictly personal preference. But if you like the tone of the Traynors, they are super values.

Philip-- You'll get no argument from me on anything you said in your post. In regard to the insane MSRP on a 1959 Standard Les Paul reissue, I have an interesting tidbit...........

I personally know a guy who worked at the Gibson factory in Nashville for about 4 years back in the mid-90s. He told me horror stories about how the brass at the very top would hold staff meetings and what went on during these would make your hair stand up on end. My source was part of the administrative staff so this info comes first-hand. Anyway, a large part of these meetings was spent on "pricing strategy". The purpose was to "brainstorm" and come up with ways to jack up the price of guitars and instrument quality be damned. Guitars were leaving the factory with increasingly shoddy workmanship and only perfunctory quality controls and inspection were in place. Top management made it clear in deed, if not in words, that product quality was merely an afterthought. Profit was *everything*, and the more they could squeeze out of unsuspecting "Joe Customer, the better. The leeches at the top knew they were riding on the past reputation of the Gibson name and their clear aim was to milk it for everything it was worth for as long as they could get away with it.

I suspect very little has changed since my source left from there about 7 years ago.

My guitarist just bought a brand spankin' new YCV 40... and it sounds sweet.

At the same time, we've welcomed another guitarist into the band fold who plays through an early 80's Mesa Mark II.

I'm the soundguy as well as the bassist, so I'm

Alvaro, If you think the YCV40 sounds good as your guitarist bought it, just have him chunk the stock tubes and drop in some Tung-Sol 5881 output tubes and some Ei ECC83 or JJ ECC83S preamp tubes. The 5881's make the most difference in my YCV40. The Ei and JJ tubes are cheap, and sound better than some NOS preamp tubes I've heard (and some that I own). Peter McCormack has a Celestion Vintage 30 in his YCV40, and that is the next mod I will make to mine as well.

Jefferey, per a recent post by Don Butler, it seems it is necessary to buy a Japanese Epiphone Elite Series instrument if one wants the best copy of a vintage Gibson guitar. I've also heard the Japanese built Geddy Lee Jazz basses are better than the more costly American Fender Jazz basses. I suppose the new Aerodyne Jazz Bass would be better as well, as it is made by the Japanese and costs the same as the Geddy Lee model. It has improvements over the American models, such as a lightweight sculpted basswood body. I wonder that when basswood was named, did anybody realize it is one of the best tonewoods ever for bass guitar bodies? And it has taken imported guitars to popularize the tonewood, even though its sound properties has been known for a long time. I suspect it has a lot to do with board meetings where good tone and value are NOT the priorities. And the executives are just greedy jerks like that wingnut with the Princeton amp who stuffed themselves into business suits and weaseled their way into board meetings.

Philip, the Epi Elitists are not historically accurate copies, think of them more as reissues, not reproductions. For example, the T-bird bridge is styled after the current era, the mahogany is African mahogany, not a true mahogany. All in all, a reasonable facsimile with US electronics at 1/3 to 1/4 the actual (not list) price of a Gibson Historic collection.

The Geddy Lee Jazz has first rate workmanship and I like the tone, but the hardware (other than the Badass II) and the electronics are not top-grade. The block "inlays" appear to be either painted on or a decal beneath the lacquer. A good bass for the price but in no way the equal of a USA Jazz. Corner cutting has to be done to sell it at a $900 list. No way around it.

Thanx for the hints Philco!

The YCV40 that my guitarist bought came with a Celestion Vintage 30 standard. I just came in from a gig where we were outdoors and he got to crank a little more than is the norm... !

What a sweet little amp. And you say with those Tung Sols it'll be even better?

Any favorite internet merchants you'd care to mention who peddle those valves?

Dave, for the difference in price, could a Geddy Lee Jazz Bass be upgraded with better electronics to a better than USA Jazz bass condition? You can lose the block inlays by going to an Aerodyne Jazz Bass, and gain a P-bass pickup and lighter contoured body in the bargain for the same price. I will be paying attention to user comments on that bass on Harmony Central, as it is a new design of sorts, mainly due to the lightweight basswood body which also should improve the tone while lightening the weight. I read somewhere that a lighter, not heavier, body on a bass improved the bass tone as it did not interfere with the neck/string interactions as much. We shall see. It works well for OLP and others.

Alvaro, real Tung-Sol 5881 tubes are no longer in production......for MANY years. The Russian copies are not really the same thing. They are very special 6L6 type tubes that were ruggedized for industrial/military applications. Every old B-52 bomber used dozens of them in their servo motor systems. The cathode was ruggedized to prevent "sleeping sickness" due to long periods of inactivity in standby service, and the mechanical design was strengthened to prevent failure in high vibration environments. That is why Leo Fender used them in Bassman amps. The higher cost is offset by extremely long life. Don't be surprised if they outlast conventional 6L6 tubes you have tried by several times. They aren't going to get cheaper unless the Russians decide to build the real deal, and even then they are bound to sell at a substantial premium to conventional 6L6 tubes if for no other reason than they are shooting themselves in the foot for selling you a tube that gives you 3 times the service life of their regular 6L6 tubes.

You will NOT find real Tung-Sol branded 5881 tubes in NOS condition with a replacement guarantee for less than $50 from a reputable tube dealer. Expect to pay about $75 each, or more. The best place to buy would be at a Hamfest or eBay as a lot of old Hams used them in old radio transmitters (one of their most common uses in the past; guitar and audio amps were small potatoes as far as past 5881 sales went and I cannot remember 5881 tubes being pushed much for audio applications, except maybe in mobile PA systems that took a lot of physical abuse. Most audio manufacturers were too cheap to pay for the upgrade from standard 6L6 tubes and Joe Six-Pack rarely knew the difference) and when they die off their relatives dump their gear without knowing the real value of anything. Hams do NOT ordinarily pay for tubes what audiophiles/guitarists do. There were more of them than there were electric guitar players in the past, and they tended to build and repair their own equipment to a much greater degree than guitarists. They are notorious packrats of old transmitter tube types. I found half of my stash on eBay from a guy that sells Ham equipment for relatives of dead Hams, and it cost me under $90 for 4 tubes. They are all branded differently, but they are all Tung-Sol manufactured and look exactly the same internally. It is very easy to tell them from a Philips/Sylvania 5881. The Philips/Sylvania 5881 is decent, if not quite up to Tung-Sol standards, and Angela Instruments had some for sale for $15 each and I got some as backups to my Tung-Sol tubes. By the time the Tung-Sols bite the dust, I will be such an old fart that I couldn't hear the difference anyway........and eventually somebody will someday be selling my leftover 5881 stash on eBay. Get yourself a stash of real 5881 tubes while you can at affordable prices. We may never see exact copies again, even if somebody manages to come up with something as good.

A correction/retraction is in order!

I stated earlier that my guitarist's YCV 40 came with a Celestion Vintage 30 stock... WRONG! It is actually a Celestion Seventy 80. We will see about acquiring a Vintage 30.

ON ANOTHER FRONT...

Here in our little 'ol home town, we have several little electronics supply shops in the old downtown area. Now these little shops are well known... notorious, even... for still stocking scads of old radio and TV parts. And when I say old, I mean "blow the dust off the box" old!

We're planning to go out to these shops in the next few days and conduct a sort of scavenger hunt! Now, if we were to "discover" a stash of NOS Tung Sol made 5881 tubes, would that be anything any folks on this forum would be interested in hearing about?

Alvaro, if you find genuine NOS Tung-Sol 5881 tubes for $20 or less in original boxes, buy every last one of them and double or triple your money with little effort, or keep them for your personal tone stash since nothing else is exactly like them. It's not unusual to hear of 5881's lasting over 5 years in fairly heavy usage.

Be forewarned, most tube suppliers are fully aware of the value of 5881 tubes and firesale prices are rarely the case. Buying the odd 5881 tube here and there from a private seller has been my ticket to a cheap 5881 stash.

The YCV40 automatically sets output tube bias, so matched tubes are uncalled for. Your tube keepers will be too long when you install 5881 tubes, so you have to flip the clip that holds the spring around 180% and then it will be short enough to work with 5881 tubes.

The tone of that Seventy 80 speaker makes you wonder why it isn't more popular, doesn't it? I think it has killer Blues tone, but is a bit thick for Country and not quite cutting enough for harder Rock. Still a great midline speaker, however. The money you save on the YCV40 in relation to a Fender, Marshall, or Mesa makes it possible to buy a 5881 stash and a Vintage 30 with the difference and enjoy superior tone for years.

Make sure your heater supply voltage is very close to 6.3V, since more than plus or minus 5% will drastically shorten power tube cathode lifespan. You should have 6.0V to 6.6V, or don't bother wasting valuable old tubes like the Tung-Sol 5881. Should be no problem with the YCV40, but some really old amps were made for 110V, and now run high since 120-125V is the normal utility voltage for much of the day. You can put a modern Hammond filament transformer in those old amps and get the voltage right, or add a dropping resistor in series with the tube filament. The dropping resistor also helps limit current surge on startup.

You use to be able to find 5881's about 10 years ago for $15-20. each.. I'd be interested in some if they were found. Funny though that when Marshall first started in 1962 they used 5881's untill they switched to KT-66's in `63 or `64. Try some real 5881's in a JTM-45 and you'll know why Jim Marshall liked them.
I had a bunch of Tung-Sol's but have sold them thru the years and I only have one set left..

You can still find genuine Tung-Sol 5881's for $20-$25 on eBay if you buy singly and accept other branding such as RCA or Raytheon on the tube. Tung-Sol 5881's are very easy to spot, to all you newbies that want some, as their construction techniques were unique to Tung-Sol. Pay no regard to the brand name on the tube. They seem to all be the same quality in tone and reliability. It was just a common practice for the tube companies to sell other companies' tubes due to distribution practices. Learn to distinguish the internal construction details. This is something that you can't do with solid state devices.

If you want to get a Fender bass get a 60's or if you are a millionaire get a 50's bass,no new Fender bass compares with the old ones IMHO.
I had three new American Jazz deluxes in the past few years (they compare in price to a new Ric) and would have traded all three for a mid 60's P bass, or better yet, a 60's Ric
I had problems with all three, especially that the straplock screws were just not of a big enough diameter and long enough for the bass, they kept coming loose and then stripping and you could not put a bigger screw in them because of the size of the hole.