Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

Ok, here's the thread that talkes about the Fender case. The first post has a link to the US Patent and Trademark Office findings (just in case you want to read all the legal verbiage).

http://rickresource.com/forum/viewtopic ... rt#p527091

Just like Aspirin.

marc61 wrote:

Bighouse wrote:What's the history behind the "lawsuit" quote?

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/msg/1263940310.html

I'm sure RIC won...right?

He's using "Lawsuit" to define an era in the 70's where copies were made in mass of the major brands.

The irony is that there never was a "lawsuit" in the 70s. Historically Gibson's then parent company, Norlin, threatened legal action against Elger Hoshino, US distributor of the Ibanez brand in June 1977. The particular trademark infringement they were challenging was the use of the "open book" headstock on Ibanez guitars. The timing could have been better - Ibanez headstock shapes had been changed from 1976 onwards and were no longer infringing, so no lawsuit ever took place. To the best of my awareness none of the Japanese or Korean manufacturers of 70s copy instruments, or their Western distributors, were ever on the receiving end of legal action from Gibson, Fender, Rickenbacker or anyone else.

By the end of the 70s the "big" Japanese names like Ibanez & Aria were successfully selling original design high-quality instruments, and many name musicians were adopting these instruments, so the Western market for cheap & mid-priced clones pretty much died out. These instruments were still manufactured & sold in their home markets, and still are.

seyesbass wrote:Heres a Kimbara faker from a review in International Musician 1978.
Says its a "pre production sample".
I remember seeing a Jazz bass of theirs but not the Rickenfaker.

Its almost unthinkable now that anyone would attempt such a hardfaced rip off.
The hard work Rickenbacker put into protecting their copyright seems to have paid off.

Sadly not. Lately there's been an influx of cheap copies from China & Indonesia - including some fairly lamentable-looking Rick wannabes. RIC will have little or no ability to stop these things at source, and there will always be importers & retailers willing to put profit well before principle.

Do you have a bigger scan of that Kimbara review? Very interesting for a geek like me!

Jon.

Hi Jon,
I agree about the Chinese fakers and the point you made about the market opening out for original designs by companies like Ibanez.
Its unthinkable that fakers could come from reputable Japanese companies these days.
I dont think the Japanese fakes made any serious inroads into the 70s market even with players like The Jam and Joy Division/New Order using copies and it must have been easier to produce original designs from scratch than try and replicate 4001 basses.
I own an Ibanez "Gibson lawsuit" twin neck which my brother in law rescued from a rubbish bin with original case
The twin neck has CSL on the headstocks which stands for "Charles Summerfield Limited" of Sunderland who imported these from Ibanez.
My guitarist Tim uses it on And You And I.
Some more pics.......

I cruise the SFBay craigslist listings a couple of times per week. In a few years of doing so, Ive never seen so many fakers listed as there were early this week, and I flagged each and every one of them. CL seems to be advised of the reason for deleting these instruments once flagged, probably from repeated contact with RIC legal.

Once a listing is flagged once, the listing is automatically removed from the CL search engine, and the listing party is notified via email. The listing is then put up for review, at which point one surmises that the counterfeit issue comes up and the listing is removed. This can take anywhere from a few hours to a few days, and unlike USA eBay, the copyright holder has no direct input into the removal.

seyesbass wrote: I own an Ibanez "Gibson lawsuit" twin neck which my brother in law rescued from a rubbish bin with original case
The twin neck has CSL on the headstocks which stands for "Charles Summerfield Limited" of Sunderland who imported these from Ibanez.
My guitarist Tim uses it on And You And I.
Some more pics.......

Hi Pete - not too often you find anything like that in a rubbish bin! Technically the CSL brand is nothing to do with Ibanez - although these guitars were built by the same factory, Fujigen Gakki, and are very similar to the equivalent Ibanez model. Summerfield was UK importer of Ibanez in the 70s and sourced their own brand from the same factory. It's not known whether they used Hoshino Gakki (owner of the Ibanez brand) as supplier, although it's possible - Hoshino are known to have supplied guitars for JT Coppock's Antoria brand - indeed these are identical to their Ibanez equivalents, right down to the catalogue numbers.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever seen either an Antoria or a CSL Rickenfaker? I never have, and wonder if there were any.

Jon.

Thanks for the extra info Jon.
I cant remember seeing a CSL faker but if I spot any in my old mags (International Musician,Beat Instrumental) I will post pics.
The Shaftsbury fakers used to be the most common that I came across in the 70s.

Maybe we need to have a "Faker dept." to collect as much info on them as possible in one place.
It might be handy for weeding out scams and people selling faker parts on the net etc.

I think a guide to fakers would be a good idea . I know that I had the "what if it's a faker " feeling after I bought my Ric .

Fortunately it's the real thing , however there have been those that were not so lucky .

morrow wrote:I think a guide to fakers would be a good idea . I know that I had the "what if it's a faker " feeling after I bought my Ric .

Fortunately it's the real thing , however there have been those that were not so lucky .

Joey Vasco already has an excellent & exhaustive collection of photos on his Bass Notes site which is a great resource for what to look out for. Fortunately the 70s copies weren't trying to be exact counterfeits so are usually not too hard to spot. What's good is that the current crop of copies are really not remotely accurate and hopefully would be unlikely to fool anyone considering buying a Rickenbacker.

I've toyed with the idea of putting together some info about copies to post up here, because they do provoke a fair bit of interest and (possibly morbid) curiosity among Rick players. Being a collector of 70s Japanese basses & guitars means I do know a fair bit of background about the different manufacturers & versions, but I'm very conscious of the fact they are a controversial topic and are offensive to a lot of contributors here.

There's quite a lot of interest in these instruments & they are discussed regularly on the vintage Japanese guitar boards & general bass forums. As much as I'd like to share my interest here, on the whole I think the subject's better suited to those other boards!

Jon.

morrow wrote:I think a guide to fakers would be a good idea . I know that I had the "what if it's a faker " feeling after I bought my Ric .

Fortunately it's the real thing , however there have been those that were not so lucky .

I have written a couple of these guides for Ebay. They've been pretty widely read. There's undoubtedly more to add, so I welcome additions and corrections, and I will edit my guides based upon feedback from experts on the RRF.

http://reviews.ebay.com/SPOTTING-A-FAKE ... 0008484064

http://reviews.ebay.com/DON-apos-T-BUY- ... 0008474935