Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

ken_j wrote:From the short Google search I did it appears the Epis were made in the '90s. I even found one for sale.

Ken, I can't find any reference to them at all, except for a SKU and order history through the serial number of the guitar for sale in your link. It was invoiced in 2001. Normally Epis never have the same headstock as Gibson models. They were an exclusive for some store though, as the SKU ends on a -3!

Weird though that I can't find more info

Well, I find this interesting. If I could play, I'd really like that Moderne - different but cool.

Wildberry wrote: ... Normally Epis never have the same headstock as Gibson models...

A friend's Epi from the '70s or early '80s has a standard Gibson headstock with the Epiphone written in the same script as Gibson with a small KZ for Kalamazoo.

Wildberry wrote: ... They were an exclusive for some store though, as the SKU ends on a -3! ...

As I mentioned earlier in this thread "The store is a premier dealer (or what ever Gibson calls them)..."

ken_j wrote:

Wildberry wrote: ... Normally Epis never have the same headstock as Gibson models...

A friend's Epi from the '70s or early '80s has a standard Gibson headstock with the Epiphone written in the same script as Gibson with a small KZ for Kalamazoo.

High fakeability, as I call it. They take a Kalamazoo or even a Maestro and convert it into an Epiphone or Gibson to make the value higher. The headstocks for all those should be slightly to totally different. Epiphones should have the "heart" headstock, or the Krameresque hockeystick (did they ever use the Kramer-style headstock at Epi before Henry took over?).

In this case the "Moderne" does not have the typical universally known Gibson shape, as Epiphone is not allowed to use that (under Henry, who knows what NORLIN's stance was?) so might be why they did the Epi "Moderne" with the same shape.

ken_j wrote:

Wildberry wrote: ... They were an exclusive for some store though, as the SKU ends on a -3! ...

As I mentioned earlier in this thread "The store is a premier dealer (or what ever Gibson calls them)..."

Small dealers don't get any exclusives, but regional exclusives do exist, and then a small dealer can get the exclusive as well.

Anyway, not to wind into too much side-stories, MARS was the dealer who was supposed to get the Epi "Moderne" with regular headstock exclusively... the colourfull E-Series quartet's names, except for "Futura", are quite sarcastic in the context, imo.

The poly series was however produced, but then I only found them invoiced (Sam Ash) in the black version as shown in the 2001 Epiphone catalogue.

Wildberry wrote:
High fakeability, as I call it. They take a Kalamazoo or even a Maestro and convert it into an Epiphone or Gibson to make the value higher. The headstocks for all those should be slightly to totally different. Epiphones should have the "heart" headstock, or the Krameresque hockeystick (did they ever use the Kramer-style headstock at Epi before Henry took over?).

I have to disagree. I can't provide a pic of his guitar right now but will try to get one in the future. A quick Google search and I found a pic of the same guitar as his but don't see the KZ on this one. These were produced when both Kalamazoo and Nashville were operating at the same time. Most Gibsons I have seen have two pickups but I have seen pics of them with one. I have seen one Gibson with binding. My friend's is the same as the one pictured here. The model is called Spirit. If I recall correctly they have a poplar body and a maple neck. They are the same shape as a Les Paul double cut-away. Here is a description from Wikapedia:

The Gibson Spirit is a guitar model sold under Gibson and Epiphone USA nameplates in the 1980s. This article does not refer to the made-in-China Spirit guitar sold under the Gibson Baldwin Music Education nameplate...The Gibson Spirit is a lesser-known model produced from 1982 to 1985 by Gibson in the Nashville, TN and Kalamazoo, MI factories. It was initially produced in the Kalamazoo factory under the Epiphone nameplate. In response to poor sales, some Epiphone models were changed to Gibson, and a faint Epiphone logo can be seen under the Gibson logo on the peghead.

Gibson Spirit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson_Spirit
Epiphone Spirit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Epiphonespiriti.jpg
My point is "never say never". Gibson has made so many models and variations through the years I don't know how any one could retain all the differences without references.

ken_j wrote:My point is "never say never". Gibson has made so many models and variations through the years I don't know how any one could retain all the differences without references.

Headstock logos are a sensitive subject. Your quote from Wikipedia shows it nicely, the Epiphone name being removed from the headstock and Gibson being put there.

I'm not convinced by either the Wikipedia article or the pictures. Some dealers messed around with Gibson & Epiphone guitars on a not so small scale since the 70s. Like there's a whole bunch of Sunburst LPs from the late 70s out there that were delivered as Ebony to dealer. The dealer simply stripped them, changed electronics, had the neck shape altered, and had them relacquered in Sunburst.

As far as Wikipedia is concerned, but of course not restricted to it, as it's a more general problem - who says it is correct anyway?
Wikipedia might list links to other sites (who says these sites tell the truth?), or books (many books contain wrong information as well because it might be assumptions/theories, not based on actual fact).

Although I really haven't been with Gibson for really that long I've seen quite a few pictures of headstock logo or lacquer issues (I'll just call it that). I'm not going to risk my job by sharing pictures I'm not allowed to share just to make a point. Headstocks and the name showing on it was and is a sensitive topic.

Here are the pics. My friend came by today so I asked him to bring the guitar. He changed the tuners from the Klusons that were stock. He also replaced the pickup with a coil tapped Bill Lawence. And finally a new pickguard. It is an '82 and the body has been refinished. It was originally black. Notice the KZ under the "e".

That's dreamy, Ken! I bet it sounds great.

It plays great but I haven't played it since the pickup change. I would like it better if it had a neck pickup.