Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

Brother Firefingers wrote:
"Dead," or "Less Sustain?"

To me, "Dead Spot" is synonymous with "Fretting Out." Somewhere on the neck between the bridge and the fingered note, the string is encountering physical interference with a fret, pickup surround, etc.

Dead spot, for the purposes of the discussion we are having here, = less sustain, not the physical impediment you describe.

Brother Firefingers wrote:"Dead," or "Less Sustain?"

I know what you're saying. I've had Fenders with actual "wolf notes" in the past that I returned to the seller because I couldn't get 'em sorted. Too bad because otherwise they were pretty nice. But when we say dead spot it's a vernacular use of it. EDIT: What John said.

When I listen to what most people think of a dead spot, the common phenomenon, I hear this: a much shorter attack and decay phase leading to a quieter and shorter sustain phase with less perceivable release. It's not just less sustain, the note itself sounds somewhat weak or choked. This is most likely because the neck is resonating with the note frequency, and the energy that translates into physical movement does not get used to maintain string vibration, changing the way the note actually sounds out and not just its sustain per se.

cassius987 wrote:It's not just less sustain, the note itself sounds somewhat weak or choked. This is most likely because the neck is resonating with the note frequency, and the energy that translates into physical movement does not get used to maintain string vibration, changing the way the note actually sounds out and not just its sustain per se.

Similarly, I think of it as the energy of the note getting absorbed into the neck as that is where the neck's major resonant frequency is at.

jps wrote:

cassius987 wrote:It's not just less sustain, the note itself sounds somewhat weak or choked. This is most likely because the neck is resonating with the note frequency, and the energy that translates into physical movement does not get used to maintain string vibration, changing the way the note actually sounds out and not just its sustain per se.

Similarly, I think of it as the energy of the note getting absorbed into the neck as that is where the neck's major resonant frequency is at.

Yep!

jps wrote:

cassius987 wrote:It's not just less sustain, the note itself sounds somewhat weak or choked. This is most likely because the neck is resonating with the note frequency, and the energy that translates into physical movement does not get used to maintain string vibration, changing the way the note actually sounds out and not just its sustain per se.

Similarly, I think of it as the energy of the note getting absorbed into the neck as that is where the neck's major resonant frequency is at.

jps is spot on. But I've evaluated my dead spots with my compressor, which has a nice multi-LED output meter. The initial volume upon attack of the note is the same as other notes, but the sustain is drastically reduced, thus producing the "choked" sound cassius refers to. So, when I said "sustain," in was in the context of a note with severely reduced sustain (i.e., perhaps 20-25% of a normal note) that does sound differently because the part of the tone that we typically hear for the duration of a normal note is effectively removed due to the rapid decay of the signal.

Very interesting... I'm sure I've experienced this, but haven't cataloged it mentally as an issue... makes perfect sense, though. There's an entire area of the physics of sound dedicated to active sound suppression, and it utilizes sympathetic and opposing frequencies and wavelengths to literally cancel out sound.

In this "modern era" of computer simulation, etc., it would seem that this issue could be minimized or avoided completely by using different wood, mass of wood, etc. What was once stumbled upon can now be found directly.

I've learned something new about my instrument today, lol!

Brother Firefingers wrote:Very interesting... I'm sure I've experienced this, but haven't cataloged it mentally as an issue... makes perfect sense, though. There's an entire area of the physics of sound dedicated to active sound suppression, and it utilizes sympathetic and opposing frequencies and wavelengths to literally cancel out sound.

In this "modern era" of computer simulation, etc., it would seem that this issue could be minimized or avoided completely by using different wood, mass of wood, etc. What was once stumbled upon can now be found directly.

I've learned something new about my instrument today, lol!

Phase (polarity) cancellation is a most useful technique for minimizing unwanted sounds.

As to minimizing or eliminating dead spots, that may prove difficult with wood as it's character and density changes within each piece of it. Probably even cutting the wood to shape changes it's character. This is why some builders use carbon fiber for their instruments (ZON, Status Graphite, Modulus, etc.).

Ok so its a few days later , I tried a brand new D string, but there was no change, backed off the lower (D,G) truss rod, but there is no improvement there either. Guess I will just have to live with it.
Thanks for all the suggestions.

jps wrote:As to minimizing or eliminating dead spots, that may prove difficult with wood as it's character and density changes within each piece of it. Probably even cutting the wood to shape changes it's character. This is why some builders use carbon fiber for their instruments (ZON, Status Graphite, Modulus, etc.).

Every bass I have ever played has had a "dead spot" to some degree. Even the Modulus 6 string I had at one time had a dead spot on the G string at the 9th fret (E). My take is that all basses will exhibit this phenomenon, but the severity and location will depend on the form and materials used in construction.

RicOshea wrote: Guess I will just have to live with it.
Thanks for all the suggestions.

Don't give up yet. Try setting up with some strings that have a different gauge or tension. TI flats made a big difference for me.

RicOshea wrote:Ok so its a few days later , I tried a brand new D string, but there was no change, backed off the lower (D,G) truss rod, but there is no improvement there either. Guess I will just have to live with it.
Thanks for all the suggestions.

If you want to prove it can be fixed at all try removing an entire tuner (not the D string one) and see what happens... my guess is your dead spot will go far, far away. Unfortunately it's hard to isolate this effect into its two parts, the change in the neck bow (it will flatten) and the change in headstock mass, but IME the headstock mass matters more.

This is an older thread on dead spots:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=379022&hilit=dead+spot

My older 1982 4001S models have less of an issue with deadspots - likely due to the relatively thick fret boards used on them and slightly more "chunky" neck. I think that it makes them more rigid, sort of what the modern two piece neck design is trying to achieve.

I've always felt that it gets down to neck resonance. If it is resonant at a pitch you are plucking, the energy gets absorbed by the neck, which pulls energy from the string vibration. When the neck vibrates, the other strings will also vibrate a bit (such as the E) pulling yet more energy. It's been a few years, but I think that I knocked on the neck like knocking on a door with the amp turned way up with the tuner on ( & strings covered with fingers). The "pitch" of the neck was the same as the deadspot pitch.

The tightening of the truss rods is a way to make the neck a little bit more rigid, but it isn't an ideal solution. If it has a deadspot, it has it. I've played a 4004 carefully and couldn't detect any deadspots affecting sustain, but that bass has a wide, solid neck with more mass than the 4000 series models.

The bass I have with the worst deadspot? A Fender Jaguar.

rickboy88 wrote:I've always felt that it gets down to neck resonance. If it is resonant at a pitch you are plucking, the energy gets absorbed by the neck, which pulls energy from the string vibration. When the neck vibrates, the other strings will also vibrate a bit (such as the E) pulling yet more energy. It's been a few years, but I think that I knocked on the neck like knocking on a door with the amp turned way up with the tuner on ( & strings covered with fingers). The "pitch" of the neck was the same as the deadspot pitch.

Most interesting, and repeatable for any of us.

johnallg wrote:

rickboy88 wrote:I've always felt that it gets down to neck resonance. If it is resonant at a pitch you are plucking, the energy gets absorbed by the neck, which pulls energy from the string vibration. When the neck vibrates, the other strings will also vibrate a bit (such as the E) pulling yet more energy. It's been a few years, but I think that I knocked on the neck like knocking on a door with the amp turned way up with the tuner on ( & strings covered with fingers). The "pitch" of the neck was the same as the deadspot pitch.

Most interesting, and repeatable for any of us.

I'm curious whether the dead spot might move if one were to change the resonant frequency of the neck (temporarily) by clamping something fairly heavy (maybe a few lb?) to the headstock. Also, does it move if the strings get detuned a bit?

I'm interested to know what Rickenbacker has to say about this issue. My new 4003 has the same dead spot for 3-4 frets on the D string as the OP. It seems to me that a $2000 instrument should be protected against these sorts of issues. And please dont say "all guitars have dead spots", because they dont. I have had several that dont have them. In fact, the only two basses I have owned with dead spots was a Squier Precision and my RIC.