Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

Well for what its worth and you can judge for yourself with my sample video link attached below with my band playing "Spirit of Radio" played in the style of Exit Stage Left. This was shot with an iPhone by an onlooker of our rehearsal, but you can get the idea of what my Ric tone sounds like if you use good computer speakers or headphones. No audio feeds were used shooting this video just the microphone from the iPhone.

My signal path is this: 1983 RIC 4001 Autumnglow with a RIC/Schaller hybrid bridge into a ric-o-sound box. Treble signal side going to an Ibanez BC9 chorus, then out to a Sansamp RBI preamp, then into an Ampeg SVT classic stack consisting of a 4X10 cabinet on top and a 1X18 on bottom. The bass side signal is fed into an Ashly SC-40 Preamp with a distortion mod, then out to a 1970 Sunn 2000S tube head that is fed into a matching Sunn 2000S 2 X 15 cabinet loaded with JBL D140F speakers.

Here is a video clip to hear it let me know if you have trouble viewing it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW8VH6LYGT0

And on top of that, Geddy Lee plays really really hard! I have to dig in even with this setup to get the RIC tone when I use the Rotosound Swing bass 66 nickel set. You have to dig for it on some RICs and others not so much.

So in summary to get this tone you seek:

1. Amplification
2. Type of guitar
3. The setup of the guitar
4. Playing style and technique
5. Signal path

Hope this helps.

Great recording Todd! Best cover ever!

heinpete wrote:Great recording Todd! Best cover ever!

I am so glad you enjoyed it Pete! Thank you.

Sounds good.. . Plenty of "gank" and "clank".

I forgot to mention the strings and the gauges also play a role in the crispiness/roundness of the sound. I used the Rotosound RS66LDN's on this particular guitar, I understand Geddy Lee uses the Rotosound RS66LD. Just the stainless set which I guess are brighter in tone.

Which is I guess what you want.

I wholeheartedly agree that MOST of the tone is in the fingers, so to speak. That is unless you're trying to cop the Squire sound, in which case the pick technique is a huge factor, but I digress. Gear does play a pretty significant role in sound as well though. In my opinion Geddy just didn't sound right with the Wal, too soft and squishy, and the Steinburger sounded thin to my ears. Geddy does play very hard, most often on a passive bass with single coil pickups (see 4001 or Jazz Bass) strung with slightly lighter gauge stainless steel strings, though I think in recent years he's switched to standard gauge. He has said in interviews that he rarely used the Ric-o-Sound, finding it to be more "hassle than it's worth" or something to that effect. Whether he used it on Exit Stage Left I couldn't say for sure. The most important thing to the "Geddy sound" is the attack. Geddy played with his fingers, in the early days striking downward onto the string with enough force to create just a bit of fret rattle (and sometimes more than just a bit.) In the eighties he would also incorporate a lot of popping of the string like one might in a funk slap/pop style. These days Geddy primarily utilizes a technique where he effectively uses his index finger like a pick, striking both upwards and downwards, almost like James Jamerson, still with enough force to create that signature clank. I have also heard that Geddy grows the fingernails on his right hand just a little longer to get a slightly brighter tone than a standard finger player, but I can't remember where I heard this so I have no idea how true it is.

Back in the 70s he was running into Ampeg and Sunn gear, much like Chris Squire, the precise configuration of which I couldn't say off hand however. The biggest differences between Geddy's tone and Squire's to my ear are: A) Squire usually has a bit more of a "chime" to his top end a big low-mid presence with a bit of a high-mid cut, where Lee sounds more like his EQ might have an upper midrange "honk" to it and more natural "growl" in the low-end. And B) where Squire was often quite clean except for the natural fret rattling "clank" of his playing and the use of pedals, Lee always sounded to me on the earlier recordings like he was pushing his amps really hard and getting a constant slight natural overdrive as a result. This opinion is reinforced by his current use of Orange bass amps which break up far more easily than most other bass amps, perhaps in an effort to come closer to that earlier tone? I don't know, just my thoughts.

I'm in no way an expert with inside knowledge, just another fan with the same quest as every other bassist, to find his tone. Myself, I'm looking for Geddy Lee's modern low-end growl paired with Chris Squire's top-end chime and clank. This is just a collection of my observations and opinions, but I hope somebody finds it helpful.

Todd....That was awesome! You guys are some twisted, hard core RUSH fans. With RUSH not doing anymore big tours, it's a perfect time to ramp up a project like this.

aceonbass wrote:Todd....That was awesome! You guys are some twisted, hard core RUSH fans. With RUSH not doing anymore big tours, it's a perfect time to ramp up a project like this.

Yeah that was kinda what we figured; however, we had formed this project way in advance to Rush ever deciding not to do that anymore. Just good timing I suppose?

Also, the Rush mostly that we will target is the Rush most fans miss. The Rush with all the percussion, the 80's drums, the older synths, etc. We will also hit some newer era material sprinkled in, but the 70's/80's Rush is our main target.

For instance, Our drum kit which is the one in the video, is being designed and overseen by previous, as well as one existing road crew member(s) who are consulting us on our setups, tone and instruments, as we go along.

We were able to obtain a 12" Tom from Neil himself that was used on Rush's Power windows tour as a spare tom to swap out if anything were to go wrong. Now, this Tom has all of the specs that Neil's Vintage 80's Tama superstars had. Neil's Tama superstars were never produced for the public. They were especially designed for him. So we are using this 12" Tom as a guide for the thickness, the vibrafibing and the color for our kit.

The color of this Tom however, was never painted on any of Neils CAR kits, and never produced on any of Tama's kits at all. It was a shade of "Rush" red that was never done on a kit until now. Making our kit a Rush red kit, and also a one of a kind.

Twisted you say? How is my harness coming along Dane? I am happy to know we have the right person on that project! I cannot wait to get it!

And thanks for the kind words. I am glad you enjoyed the sneak peak. Its the best I can do for now until the actual unveiling.

Todd....I'm just finishing a batch of harness now, and will have yours done before Friday...

Excellent! Thank you so much! I cannot wait to install and hear the differences this will make to my overall tone and solve the mystery of why this bass sounds so much different than my other rics.

I am sure it will be quiet as a mouse also. I have disected this bass and my other one reading resistance values and everything to see what the tonal differences are and they are close to being the same except for how the pots are configured and their values, but something is different. The pickups both read in the same range so I know it's not that. It's definitely the treble side that is effected I do know that. It is as if the tone cap is not even there. If it is because I have a dead set of strings on there, I will be blown away. ThAt could also be the case.

I am curious if it is because of the overal physical makeup of 4001's were different than later models the reason they sound different.

The neck feels thinner than my 83 model. My 83 also has a different bridge which makes the sustain and bring out more of a woody tone from the guitar body and I like that. I like the ric bridges on my 4080's the way they are. I am anxious to learn more.

Whatever it is I am going to find out what it is. I just want to get the best sound that I possibly can from this bass since it is going to be my number one.

The sound is in the fingers - and not in the amp settings etc.... I couldn't agree more!

Yet there's more to it: The sound is also in the ACTION!

In Geddy's case, not only does his (admittedly hard-hitting!) playing technique produce his signature sound. It's also the relatively low(!) action, which produces a considarable amount of rattling and buzzing in his bass tone. Hence there's quite a bit of "distortion" going on already, long before his bass signal even THINKS about the possibility of getting amplified one way or another.
(I do emphasize "low" action here because I've read forum contributions and/or articles stating otherwise...)
One giveaway is a "G. L.'s bass collection" video he did not too long ago, where he demonstrates a few of his basses by playing them unplugged: one can hardly hear any notes - it's basically just buzzing, buzzing and even more buzzing all over the place! Yet it seems to work... lo and behold!
Something that is commonly referred to as a no-go, which allegedly has to be avoided under any condition (and guitar techs charge a fortune for helping us getting rid of), is essential to get that magical sound: yes, it's the STRING BUZZ that does most of the magic!

The same is true regarding the Chris Squire tone. His rm1999 obviously had a much lower action on the early YES recordings, producing a sound very similar to Geddy's. That being said, the action must have (been) changed in favour of a higher one some time in late 70's or, more likely, early/mid 80's. Hard to tell exactly when, but it definitely happened over the years, as THE clanky, aggressive signature Squire tone we all love was history by the early 90's the latest, on latter-day Yes albums like "Keys To Ascension", "Magnification" cont. ...

As the tone is all in the playing technique AND the action, one can easily verify this at home by simply playing with the bass setup a bit, namely altering neck relief (nearly zero) and string height (low). You retail people out there may hate me for this, but the coolest thing about it is that it comes FREE OF CHARGE!
One will be surprised how many tonal variations can be produced just by tinkering with these two variables.
That's where it all starts, and anyone in all earnestness believing that just spending big bucks on his/her hero's equipment will cut it is up for a big disappointment.

This had been done countless times before, I know, but let's just have yet another back-to back comparison "Squire vs. McCartney" - because once you've compared these two players and their tone, there will be no more open questions.
Technically, they both play(ed) the same bass, a '64 4001 model. Identical instruments... with the possible exception of one being left-handed. To top things off, the both use(d) a pick almost exclusively. (Their individual choice of amplification can be left out of the equation because it's neglectable...)
Yet their signature tones are worlds apart!
Macca, for one, used (and continues to use) flatwound strings and prefers the action to be on the high side, resulting in a warm, thumping tone. Squire's bass, on the other hand, used to have low action - and Chris used Rotosound round wound strings, as we all know.

So get your wrenches and screwdrivers out and go for it. Don't be afraid to let 'em buzz!!!


Cheers,
kiwi

Good post - enjoyed reading that.

I agree - fascinating (and bears out a theory I've often wondered about, concerning action and string buzz!).

kiwi wrote:The same is true regarding the Chris Squire tone. His rm1999 obviously had a much lower action on the early YES recordings, producing a sound very similar to Geddy's. That being said, the action must have (been) changed in favour of a higher one some time in late 70's or, more likely, early/mid 80's. Hard to tell exactly when, but it definitely happened over the years, as THE clanky, aggressive signature Squire tone we all love was history by the early 90's the latest, on latter-day Yes albums like "Keys To Ascension", "Magnification" cont. ...

Following your train of thought, I wonder whether the reason why Chris's Rick sound altered after the 70's was due to the forces on the neck of his RM1999, with the neck pickup at the ½" position - this could possibly have created a degree of neck dive that's familiar to many of us, that perhaps prevented Chris from setting the action as low as he would have liked, affecting the Rick's ability to continue producing that iconic early Yes sound? It's a thought....

Thanks Kiwi!

Ash

Yes, I also firmly believe that the action is key to getting that tone because my 83 Autumnglow 4001 has that capability and the strings have a rattle I cannot get with this 73 that I have sitting here. I have to dig harder on the 73 to get a relatively similar tone but it is not the same. Not as much brightness and sustain.

The reason I believe is because of the bridge. My tech could not get the action any lower on the 73 RIC because the bridge would not allow it without some kind of issues and the neck is as straight as a board.

What really puzzles me is that people who put BADASS Bridges on their RICs have high action and can do nothing about it. You peak of Geddy's action being low, but I have seen it relatively high in some video shots. With the BAdass bridge installed.

My Autumnglow has a tone of its own yet has a hybrid bridge that I decided to go with. I call it a Hybrid Schaller/RIC Bridge and tail piece.

Here is a link to a picture of my bridge: http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y31 ... C09905.jpg

And I link this mod to being a part of its tone which in turn gives it low action and the String rattle that you guys are discussing.

The 73 does not have this tone yet, I am experimenting to get to the bottom of it.

Ashgray wrote:I wonder whether the reason why Chris's Rick sound altered after the 70's was due to the forces on the neck of his RM1999, with the neck pickup at the ½" position - this could possibly have created a degree of neck dive that's familiar to many of us, that perhaps prevented Chris from setting the action as low as he would have liked,...

Dear Ash,

given the fact that, according to Chris, quite a bit of wood had been removed in the course of at least two major refin jobs, thus further weakening an area that is not exactly strong by default, this is the theory I would support.

Then again, Chris' personal idea of how his bass should sound may have changed as well. Many players tend to change their technique & tone during their careers, a prime example being Geddy Lee himself. But in this case, Chris probably would have used another bass, as he occasionally did anyway, and keep his RM1999 as it is, enabling him to reproduce the "period correct" 70s YES bass tone if need be.
So I think that's not very likely... but who knows?

All we know for sure is that there HAD been a considerable change in action (and consequently sound). Whether or not that was a deliberate one is open to speculation, as Chris never discussed that subject publicly, AFAIK...

Cheers,
Karsten