Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

The solid state technology of the 60's is stone age compared to only a decade or two later and hadn't really been developed for audio yet. Late 60's solid state Vox amps would more reliably blow up than a VC booby trap. TV was the big kahuna of solid state technology in the consumer market back then. The 70's was the time of the big spread of solid state in consumer audio, and some amps like Marantz actually sounded pleasant, although most solid state still sounded like dreck. Solid state audio got a bad rap through horrible circuit design by engineers with tin ears and questionable engineering skills. JFET circuits can mimic preamp tube circuits very well. The sharpest audio engineers usually worked in industries where the pay was higher.

Speaking of Mesa Boogie amps, Mesa Engineering's big claim to fame was adding an extra stage of gain to a fairly classic tube preamp design. Hardly the level of electrical engineering that was taking place in other industries. Go to the Tone Lizard website (also from Canada which is where high gain tube amp tone really came from, not California) for a glimpse into how tube guitar amps really came about, and the horrendous design flaws in some of the classic Marshall tube amps that is guaranteed to blow them up in due time. Randy Bachman first got his overdrive tone by running the output of one amp into the input of another amp and basically blowing it up after a short while. Garnet amps of Winnipeg invented the Herzog gain stage to prevent him having to blow up any more amps to get that tone of his. The Boogie design idea was basically stuffing the extra stage of gain on the same circuit board instead of using an outboard effects unit. While other electrical engineers were working on navigation units in supersonic Blackbird spy planes or listening computers for nuclear submarines, Mesa added an extra tube gain stage that duplicated what the Canadians had already done in a different way and it's a big California deal. I knew some Californians when I was in the military, and taking a Canadian design and putting it out on the market in new clothes and claiming it as a Californian design doesn't surprise me in the least. No wonder Gene Simmons said the music gear review magazine articles were usually about the same old BS in a different wrapper and not worth paying much attention to.

There's a website about tube amp tone that explains the different tube preamp circuit types, and there's only a few types to this day and probably no new types invented after Mesa's wonderful rediscovery of Bachman's possible discovery and Garnet's practical adaptation which in all likelihood probably began with Randy just sitting around on a cold Winnipeg winter night and tossing back a few brews while he messed around with his amps looking for new ways to get different sounds out of them. But if Boogie sound blows your hair back, I say go for it and forget about who invented it, because just about everybody else never bothered to learn the truth to forget about it and Randy may be in Winnipeg on a cold winter night right now tossing back a few brews and not worrying about who invented high gain triple rectifier tone because possibly he wasn't the first either and may have stolen it from some high school punk who was just seeing what would happen if he hooked things up in new ways, like some wingnuts I know, and later said to Randy, "Hey dude, I know how to get a cool sound from an amp like you never heard before".

My dad knew a guy who went to a concert to see how a famous country music guitarist got his special tone, and it was some paper with a tin foil coating from a cigarette pack folded up and shoved under his strings. Oh, the terrible things guitarists had to do before they acquired 6 pedals, a triple rectifier amp, hot pickups, and a sound engineer tweaking knobs while they played to get their special signature tone.

Wow! What an 'er... earful.

Philco, using your Tech21 sansamp suggestion, what form of sound amplification are you suggesting? To be frank, I am like Spencer, I cannot put my finger on it, but I have always preferred tube amplification. The only exception to that has been a Roland Jazz Chorus, and a buddy's Fender Princeton.

Every emulation effect I have tried comes close but doesn't quite get me there. I was playing them though my Fender and Ampeg with the eq set dead flat. I've also DI'd straight to the house sound as well...

My rig got a whole lot easier and a lot less fussy when got a combo with two channels that were useable (the Mesa) and I mic'd the combo with an SM57. Then I've got a chorus pedal to add sparkle where I want it.

As for the comments about "California" sound being stolen from Canada... And who invented what... That wasn't the spirit of my post, or any replies on here anyways. Besides, Canada is too cold. (How's that for insightful analysis)?

I'm not suggesting Mesa's are better than any other tube amp out there, or getting prissy about some other boutique tube amp, like Black Cat, Rivera, or that other one who's name escapes me... In fact, the two I really liked are the modestly priced/mass produced Fender and Ampeg.

Give us the links to that Lizard site you are talking about and I'll take a look when I have some quiet time to digest it. I'd like to learn a little bit more about this.

www.tone-lizard.com

Jim, I wasn't suggesting that you were prissy about amps, but that a lot of other people are. I have to chuckle about what gets accepted as gospel when I read the history of guitar amps.

I use an old B&K 200WPC amp with the rack handles for easier carrying. Depending on model and condition, they cost about $200-$500 on eBay. You could rack mount it if you added rack ears on the case front. The factory will do XLR input conversions, and some amps came with them as a $100 option. Otherwise, get something like a Crown amp. If you can play clean recordings through your loudspeakers and they sound uncolored and will take the stress at the volumes you play at, they are good enough. Old Polk loudspeakers can be bought at fair prices, and they are very common. Mine cost $150 for a near mint pair. They are a lot like recording studio monitors. My brother gave a lot less for his good used pair of Polks. A pair of Tannoy pro studio coaxial monitors would really gild the lily, and you would probably kick your regular stereo speakers out the door. The Brit readers with any audio expertise know what I'm talking about in regards to Tannoy pro speakers. They were used to mix a lot of your favorite recordings. They are rebuildable with cast frames, etc., and have parts availability going way back. Old Polks are cheap and can be replaced at less cost than a rebuild. This stuff will not be guitar magazine reviewer approved because it bypasses their regular advertisers. Screw them. Don't forget to plug in a CD player and enjoy the other audio aspects as well.

If it's power amps we're talking about, I'm getting terrific results from a Stewart World 1.6... 1600 watts at 4 ohms (bridged) and just 16 pounds! Terrific punch driving a couple of Acme Low B2 speaker cabinets.

They also make these little 100-200 watt half-rack units as well that would seem to be more in line with a nice compact guitar rig... very nice:



Specifications PA-200:
Frequency Response + / - 0.5dB - 20Hz - 20kHz
Bandwidth + / - 3dB - 5Hz - l00kHz
Noise (A weighted any mode) - 98dB below full rated power
THD (8 Ohms) 20Hz-20kHz at Rated Output - <0.08%
Input Impedance - 20K Ohms
Input sensitivity for Rated Output (8 Ohms) - 1v
Maximum Output Power, 20Hz-20kHz Stereo:
Stereo - 50w x 2 @ 8 Ohms / 90w x 2 @ 4 Ohms / 100w x 2 @ 2 Ohms
Bridged Mono - 180w 8 Ohms / 200w 4 Ohms
Damping Factor - >200 / 8 Ohms
Number of Channels - 2
Input Connectors - 1/4" TRS
Output Connectors - 1/4" TRS
High Speed Switching Power Supply Design
2.5 kg (5.5 lbs)

It would seem to me that a guitarist/bassist wouldn't want their rig to be too heavy, so check into these puppies!

You could also try a nice second hand Crown DC300 A MkII, tons of clean power there, or even more so, a Crown K1, or K2.

DC300's go for around $250-$300 on Ebay and make a great power base, able to be used in eithere Stereo, or bridged mono.

Alvaro, that is the exact amp and cabs that I had in mind, but I already had the B&K amp at 300W + 300W into 4 ohms. Plenty of power for what I need. I prefer a linear power supply for absolute best tone, so I will stick with the B&K amp until it bites the dust, and they are famous for few breakdowns. It can put out 15A of continuous peak current per side, or 30A total, so it can put out the full power rating with current to spare. The Stewart PA-200 should pair well with the RBI for guitar use.

For home practice at realistic volumes, stereo speakers do just as well as Acme cabs and mine are flat down to 48 Hz at least which is better than most 2x10 cabs. They rattle the bedroom furniture and that's good enough. Small speakers work better in small rooms. I could use a much smaller amp and still do just fine, but the B&K sounds effortless on bass and makes full power down to 5 Hz. The B&K EX-442 throws in another transformer and an extra set of caps for dual mono power supplies and an extra pair of output transistors per side for driving really low impedance loads. You need at least one pair of output transistors for every 100 watts of continuous power or you are running on borrowed time with solid state amps. The EX-442 is thus good for 400W per side reliably, and they show up on the used market at good prices.

I want to second what Jim said. Crown amps are well known in the pro world and you can sell them very easily if you decide to get rid of them. B&K is just as famous in the audiophile/home theater world. It really depends on where you will use it and what the market situation is in your location. If home theater and audiophiles outnumber pro users, then B&K will probably be easier to get used than Crown, or just the reverse could be true. B&K will usually sit in a home and be treated a lot better its whole life. If you want to also use the amp in a home theater and audiophile setup, go B&K. If you will rack mount and interface with pro audio gear, the Crown gets the nod because you want the same type connectors and interfaces on the gear you will be hooking it up to. My amp sells for around $350 on eBay in the same unscratched mint looking condition, and retailed at $798 MSRP back in '91, and I paid $620 new. Add $100 at new retail for a B&K amp with the XLR input options, and it's what you want if you interface with pro sound gear. I use adapters, and it works fine in home environments because I am not constantly connecting and disconnecting. I am also able to interface my audiophile preamp for an extra stage of gain and a recording or effects loop and lots of extra inputs for other gear. I actually own two RBI's, one for each channel, and a channel switching box. XLR's will withstand a lot more abuse and wear than RCA connectors, so go that route if gigging the amp.

The crown DC300A has a dampening factor of greater than 1000. This gives it one of the tightest bottom ends in the business. These are great for bass with the right preamp.

A damping factor of 1000 is tighter than tight, since anything over 20 has almost no discernible effect on the sound. Tube amps are typically less than 10. My B&K rates a 180 at 8 ohms, or 90 at 4 ohms. I would like to know what the DC300A continuous current rating is, and what current, frequency and load impedance the damping factor was figured at. My damping factor is probably lower due to lower negative feedback. B&K is noted for tubelike sound, so if a big clean tube amp sound is your piece of cake, B&K is the solid state amp for you. B&K rolls off the top end at 45kHz in the specs, but I actually measured some rolloff at 15kHz in my amps, which is exactly where big powerful tube amps start to roll off the top end. My C-J solid state amp has a bit more crispness and definition in the top end. What is notable on both amps is their upper harmonic integrity, which maintains the proper tonal colorations in musical instruments. Massed violins sound like massed violins, you can easily pick out individual voices in a choir, etc. Inner detail you never heard before in your recordings is everywhere. This comes from not tearing up the upper harmonic content due to phase shifting caused by excess negative feedback and signal capacitor hysteresis. You only get this in the low feedback designs that sacrifice some damping factor to prevent excess phase shift. The low feedback amps seem to "let go of the notes" a lot easier and seem more "dynamically alive". Lots of negative feedback is now known as a very bad thing for audio, and was much higher in old solid state designs compared to tube designs. C-J designs for "sounding right", not "measuring the best". A very high damping factor in a solid state amp is now seen as a questionable attribute. Audio Research, on the other hand, was famous for building tube amps with high damping factors and high feedback that managed to sound tight and dry like solid state. They have their own group of admirers. Audio Research and Conrad-Johnson slug it out neck-and-neck in the high end audio market and almost everybody has a definite preference for one or the other brand after hearing them. C-J puts a mild "golden tube glow" on everything and AR will sound more "dry and analytical". Do you prefer a rich red wine or a crisp white wine? Neither one is wrong, but everybody has their preference. It's the circuit design more than tubes or transistors that gets you your sound. When will people start considering the basic circuit design as more important than just whether it uses hollow state or solid state? You will probably prefer an audiophile amp over a pro sound amp in most cases if you are a tone junkie, and especially if you also use it for complex music like symphony orchestras. Pro sound amps like Crown are rugged and reliable first and foremost. They are a workhorse that has to reliably pull a heavy load day after day, 24x7 if necessary, with very minimal attention. It's like comparing pickups to luxury cars, but pickups now have luxury features only luxury cars once had, and pro sound amps now sound as good as audiophile amps of a few years back.

Your comparison of a Truck to a Luxy Car is interesting, I'd put the Crown DC300, and the MKIIa in the Bentley class.

My personal preference for home audio is my Quad 606.

Man, wasn't this about Mesa Boogies? I only chimed in on this thread because the person who started it has the same set up I do - A Ric and a Boogie.

Philip, I read something you mentioned in a different thread that I must say I agree with. You're a bass player, right? You said 'dirty tube amps' are good for guitars. For bass though, I think solid state transistors ARE better suited for producing clearer low frequencies. In addition, I see nothing wrong with recording a bass direct - or at a live gig, DI-ing the bass to the board. That usually sounds great.

But - I'd never plug my guitar into and amp/pa system that I could play CDs through. Or would I want to hear my guitar coming out of my stereo.
It's two different things.

I can record my guitar and listen back to it on my stereo - regardless what type of system I have, it will never sound like it does when I'm standing in front of my tube combo.

I feel there's a line between producing and reproducing music - what you're saying about this set up makes that line fuzzy.

There is simply no substitute for a tube amp.
And if you really want clean, clean, clean - sure, go out and get a JC-120. When your done playing guitar through it, you can plug in your keyboard.

And where is the "tone-man"? Don, are you out there?

I'm a bassist as well, and I agree with Spencer, nothing sounds like playing through a valve amp. By choice I'm using an old Ampeg B-25 through a 4x12 because I love the tones it delivers for me.

As has ben said, in the end it's personal choice, although it's always nice to debate the why's and wherefors.

Quad use a slogan that applies real well to this discussion, "The closest approach to the original sound" Each player has their own view of what that original sound is, or should be. How we all get there is a personal journey.

Audiophile solid state amps have made major changes in the past few years. Having to run in Class A and generating a bunch of heat and sucking energy like a tube amp is totally in the past. Outside of the B&K amps, because they are so cheap, reliable and sweet sounding if not the highest resolution, I wouldn't buy hardly any solid state amp that was more than 10 years old. The new bipolar power transistors are better than mosfets, and a lot of other solid state "dogma" has been blown out the window recently.

You can get a late model solid state C-J amp on eBay or Audiogon for less than $1000, and probably nothing from anybody at any price in the solid state field will sound better that was made more than 10 years ago. C-J solid state amps have an almost total lack of electrolytic capacitors, and their newer tube amps have none, so their lifespan can be longer than the lifespan of their owner, and the sound will change very little over time. Quite frankly, my C-J amps were intended as a final purchase as C-J has a policy since they started in business of repairing anything they ever made as long as suitable parts are available. Almost no other company has that policy, or ever will.

C-J bought tons of NOS tubes when government stockpiles were being liquidated and prices were low, so they have been a source of NOS tubes for years without advertising the fact. (Mr. C and Mr. J have degrees in economics, not electrical engineering. They hire EE people and worry about the business side themselves.) They got to skim the cream of the crop and pass on the rest to boutique tube dealers. That's why their amps had weird preamp tube types in them, but just as suitable for audio. The owner of Vintage Tube Services highly recommends their tube amps. Very few vacuum tube designs ever existed that were designed for high quality audio, and some of the best sounding tubes were made for other applications where cost constraints were not as tight as in consumer audio. The Mullard M8080 in the new C-J PV-14L preamp is one example, being made for portable radios used by the British military. It's the best 6C4 (which is half of a 6AU7, which is a 6 volt version of a 12AU7) substitute that has ever existed. At 8 English pounds each, I bought a lifetime stash from Watford Valves. They will never be built again, especially to Mullard military specifications, and I probably bought them way below dealer wholesale if they ever were built again.

NOS tubes of supreme quality would eventually dry up, and the audio industry alone could probably not support factories building to the quality standards of the past, so they started down the road of similar sounding solid state designs decades ago and released their first solid state amps after about a decade of R&D. They used their best tube amps as the yardstick of their solid state designs. Good sounding NOS tubes probably came from government strategic stockpiles, because the audio industry only bought tubes for immediate consumption. Audio tubes weren't even bought for sound quality in the old days, but reliability at the lowest cost. The Tone Lizard website explains this. My best stash of NOS RCA 12AU7A tubes came in Tektronix boxes in matched pairs intended for high end test equipment. Leo Fender would NEVER have paid for the testing and matching of 12AU7 preamp tubes. His business goal was making the most profit he could on every amp he sold in a highly cost competitive market. Want the best sound? Stay away from most parts built for the audio industry. It was not in the best business interests of C-J to advertise the fact that their future solid state designs would obsolete their tube amp designs in most every way, including cost. They had stockpiles of tubes they bought at a cheap price to use up while they tweaked the solid state designs. While sound was important, business plans had to come first in order to survive to make future designs possible. A company that designs audio gear for best possible sound with no regard to the business climate ahead will soon be out of business, and you will be stuck with an orphan. Few people consider this when buying gear. Obviously, Crown is similar to C-J in regards to business planning, as they are still around and most of their other competitors bit the dust long ago. Most of your boutigue guitar amp manufacturers will bite the dust because business planning and real R&D takes second fiddle to "tone", whatever that is. You can still get their amps fixed in the future, because almost none of them ever had an original idea anyway and it's the same old stuff with a different badge on the faceplate.

To take advantage of the high dampening factor you cannot have a crossover in the circuit or it negates it. So if you are using a cab with a horn you would need to power it differently either bi-amping or run your low end drivers full range. Also you need to have an adequate cable and connectors.
To get back to the original thread the reason I prefer tubes for guitar is that when overdriven tubes distort with even order harmonics. That is what gives them that smooth violin like sound. Transistors distort with odd order harmonics, these are unpleasant to the ears. As far as the modeling amps I believe that they are running a program to effect the sound based on a reference standard that was computer analyzed. More than likely they used a number of different amps and effects for this programing.
As far as the Boogie I believe it does a good job as a clean amp for guitar. I have no experience with their bass amps. Boogies are expensive. In their price range I'm sure that there a number of good amps out there. The only negative I have with the one I own is that it weighs 60lbs. and is way louder than I need. That is the reason I got the lighter weight Fender. They each have their place.

The Vox AC30 is a zero feedback amp. It didn't try to correct any of it's distortions with negative feedback or component matching and just let them run wild. It used highly efficient speakers with thin paper cones than were distortiion generators all by themselves. What a lot of people consider a clean amp is anything but. Putting a truly clean audiophile speaker in a guitar amp usually has the person quickly swapping the guitar speaker back into the circuit. Guitar speakers have such a limited bandwidth that a lot of upper frequency nasties are cut right out.

If you like playing a guitar through a bass amp, then the SansAmp RBI becomes a real economical option if you already owned a clean power amp and loudspeakers. If you can get some 10" stereo speaker cabs for a giveaway price, then installing an Eminence B102 in each cab and removing all other speakers will be a cheapskate way of getting some bass/emulation cabs. I would prefer acoustic suspension cabs over bass reflex cabs. They are much more free from boom and overhang and give tighter low end like the old SVT cabs. You can plug the port on bass reflex cabs and throw in some Acousta-Stuf, and you have an acoustic suspension cab. The B102 sounds good in an enclosed cab like a Marshall. Acoustic suspension cabs have a much gentler rolloff in the low end. A Marshall cab filled with Eminence B102 speakers will give you a heavy metal cab with great low end, while also making an excellent acoustic guitar cab. My father is now using a Marshall AVT20 with an Eminence B102 as his acoustic guitar amp, but my brother can also use the same amp for hard rock that rattles the doors and furniture on the low end. The B102 has a cast frame and looks like an audiophile speaker, similar to a Lowther speaker, but handling several times more power. It rolls off the low end of a 4-string bass a bit, but goes well below guitar range.

One website advised a guitarist wishing to emulate other guitarists tone to buy one-way speakers with a single driver (like Lowther, which was Jimi Hendrix's favorite speaker) to listen to recordings because they revealed much more inner detail. There is no crossover to tear apart and phase shift the signal. Once this separation occurs, the natural timbre is destroyed and cannot be regained. That's why I like the B102. You don't need a horn for high frequencies. It would be good in a 2x10 combo amp also.