Baby's In Black

[larrywassgren]

Peter, I agree that Lennon would prefer to rock on his '58 at high volume. The J-160E is very prone to feedback. It's just too bad there aren't more photos from this period. I would take Billy Kinsley's claim that he presented John with the newly refinished 325 with a grain of salt. When I told my friend Alan Stratton this he became a bit out-raged and said nobody touched Lennon's '58 325 back then, he would have killed you! Also, Billy Kinsley was fifteen years old in 1962 and was considered just a kid. The Chadwick photo just shows The Beatles with their arms around Little Richard, no instruments. Surely somebody has photos sitting on a shelf from this historic show. I have all the books and magazines and there just isn't any photos from the Little Richard Tower Ballroom show unless the one on page 83 in Remember is actually from that show. It's only one picture and it does show the piano and set up behind The Beatles which is certainly the piano Little Richard is playing on page 108 and 109. In this photo it also looks like Ringo's kit and George's VOX AC-30 on the lower stage. So, you're argument is better than mine. But, this photo could also be from the December 7, 1962 seven group peformance. I'm sure that piano was permanently set-up on the stage at the Tower and would show up in photos from that show too.

[glen_l]

There was mention above of the switch being replaced. Has there been some additional information to suggest that the whole toggle switch was replaced, rather than just the tip?

Additionally, it does seem odd that the electronics couldn't be fixed in one sitting. If the factory converted wiring in V81 was pretty much the same as current wiring (as has always been thought) then it shouldn't have been too hard to service. Standard Ric wiring isn't complicated, and any electronic technician should have been able to troubleshoot it very easily. Unless ther had to wait for a replacement part, perhaps the missing pot, to arrive.

[larrywassgren]

Good points Glen. Surely there would be somebody in Liverpool that could fix those electronics on V81. I don't think a pot was missing, I believe that was left inside the guitar until John played it and was satisfied with the wiring and then everything would be put back in place. I think the information that the switch was replaced is false as no one could possibly know/remember that forty years down the road.

[admin]

Thanks for the information on the Little Richard photo Larry.

[glen_l]

I agree Larry. There is no one forty years down the road who can know what was going on with the electronics in Lennon's V81. It's quite likely that V81 has had 4 different wirings in it's life, possibly more if Lennon was one to tamper with it as some suggest.

1. Original early '58 Two control wiring. A very different and clever loom. No other model Ric before or after, wired like the handful of these made in '58.

2. Factory modified to Four controls. Seeing as the previous wiring was so non standard, it would have either need to be completely stripped out, and a new loom installed, or extra pots and wiring spliced in, resulting in a hybrid circuit. For the sake of expediency at the time, I suspect the latter. Two extra pots and wiring added to the existing loom. Which would have made a different, non standard wiring, with volume and tone pots in postions the same as a Gibson rather than a Ric. This could account for the problems Lennon had getting it serviced. A loom that has been added to is not as tidy as an original one, and this would have been a hybrid circuit. Unfortunately there is no way of knowing the wiring that helped produced Lennon's famous 325 rhythm sound in the early days unless one of the other '58 325's factory modified in Oct '58 surfaces for inspection.

3. Wiring after the servicing currently under discussion. Quite likely the wiring was tidied up into a more standard configuration. No way of knowing exactly what was done though. Nor is there a way of knowing whether a new toggle switch was fitted.

4. Wiring completely renewed by Ron DeMarino in 1972. Reported that the wiring was in such dissarray that no sense could be made of it. It was also non standard, so Ron had to contact Rickenbacker for a schematic. We can probably assume that V81 is now wired as per an early 70's 325/320. And that this is not the way is was in it's heyday.

All that said, I would add that given the number of unsolvable questions regarding the wiring of V81 in it's early days, the wiring of the C series 325C58 with pots in current production positions & tones wired in reverse, while it may not be strictly correct, seems the best & wisest decision.

[admin]

Glen: Thanks for the detailed analysis with regard to the wiring changes made to the V81 over its history. You are correct, unless someone close to this guitar comes forward, we may never know what changes were made to the wiring of this most famous Rickenbacker.

While there certainly seem to have been a number of wiring changes to the V81, it is likely that there is only one of any true significance so far as the Beatles' music is concerned. This would be the inadvertant changes to the wiring at the time of the refinishing in the fall of 1962. It is after these changes, whatever they may have been, that the quintessential Beatles recordings were made. This is "THE SOUND" that many Rickenbacker enthusiasts have emmulated over the past 40 years. As an aside, the closest sound to Lennon's has been achieved with toasters on the 325/350 models with the middle pickup disconnected either permanently or through a circuitry designed to achieve this aim. So in some sense, the refinishing done by Charles Bantam may have been a blessing in disguise.

Charles Bantam, the coach painter, would not have been expected to know about wiring, however, he certainly would have worried about how to put the wiring back together, assuming that he removed the guard completely to do the job. It have always thought that it would have been quite easy to have the toggle switch loosen in the course of this work and simple rotate it 180 degrees such that the behaviour of the switch would have been backwards and have fooled Lennon as he was preparing to go on statge at the Cavern for the lunch-time gig.

I do not believe, as you and Larry have already noted, that there was no one in Liverpool who could have sorted this out. Certainly, Adrian Barber who was responsible for the Coffin Amplifier used by McCartney at the Cavern and the wiring of the sound system at the Star Club in Hamburg, would have had some insight into this wiring or if it was a significant problem would have been consulted. I have communicated with Adrian Barnes and he has no memory of being involved with the V81 in these days. Also, in my discussion with Burns' luthiers who repaired the V81 there was no indication that the wiring was repaired.

In fact, outside of Ron DeMarinos comments, I am not aware of any statements made by anyone at the time that Lennon's wiring was a significant problem. My discussion with Pete Best did reveal, however, that Lennon was indeed a tinkerer and certainly the knob changes and the Bigsby would give us some insight into the possibility that John did indeed do some work under the hood.

Additionally, when I listen to the early Beatles' recordings of My Bonnie, Cry For A Shadow and the like, the tonality of the V81 seems to closely resemble the sound achieved by this instrument in the Please Please Me and With The Beatles LPs. Based on this similarity in sound it would seem to me that the changes were minimal after the refinishing and likely something straightforward as the rotation of a toggle switch. I think that Lennon had already discovered the fact that he didn't like the middle pickup based on Pete Best's comments observing Lennon back in the Star Club days.

My apology for the digression from the focus of your post, however, your comments have had me think again about the impact of the wiring changes. In the end, I would argue that a simple change took place in the fall of 1962 that was easily fixed and allowed for a return of the sound that Lennon had already discovered
before the refinishing was carried out.

A lot of speculation on my part. But it has been fun.

[larrywassgren]

Yes Peter, this is a fun topic. Charles Bantam may have had his hands full with this refin job. I'm sure the spraying was not a problem, but there is a lot of work involved removing the tuners and bushings, Rickenbacker nameplate, Bigsby, jackplate, bridge and most of all the toughest part would be removing pick-ups from the top of the guitar and removing the pickguard and wiring harness. The pick-up wires would certainly have to be unsoldiered or cut so the wires could be pulled out through the top of the guitar. Unless they were unsoldiered behind the pick-ups. When taking my own '58 325 pick-ups off the guitar for Glen's wiring research, I barely had enough wire to raise the pick-up an inch to get a photo of the under-side. I can imagine all sorts of problems Charles would have just pulling it apart and then putting it back together correctly! He was a coach sprayer and this was more than likely the first electric guitar(and last) he ever worked on. As Glen has mentioned in his excellent analysis of the wiring changes of V81 over the years, having been changed from two pots to four pots at the factory would make it an even more difficult task for someone not familiar with wiring. As you've said Peter, Adrian Barber would have been able to sort out the wiring. But, he was working at the Star Club at this time so I believe John may have played the guitar 'as-is' until they played the Star Club in November of 1962. That's where the photos show only two screws holding the pickguard on and a pot presumably inside the guitar until John was satisfied with the result and everything was put back together and we see four Selmer/Hofner-type knobs back on the guitar. I've found another rare photo of the Merseybeat Poll Winners Show which shows John's '58 with four knobs again. That now proves the work done on the guitar at the Star Club was done in November of '62(as the December Star Club gigs were after the Merseybeat Poll Winners Show). I'll send you this photo Peter. Please post it here as it's a cool one!

[admin]

Here is the cool one Larry. A nice ad for Bill Harry as well.

[leftybass]

Who does the Gretsch amp belong to???

[admin]

Here is Adrian Barber playing with Cass and the Cassanovas at the Stanley Stadium in Liverpool on August 1, 1963. Alan Wiliams, one of the organizers has referred to the venture (in which he lost money) as a "floperoo."

[admin]

John: I beleive that The Beatles had this Gretsch amp is the same one used at The Star Club at one point. Larry?

Also, I couldn't help notice the knobs on this guitar that Chuck Berry was looking over in London, 1964. Lighting can play awful tricks, however, they seem somewhat similar to those used by Lennon on the V81 at one time.

[larrywassgren]

I believe the Gretsch amp belonged to one of the groups who played before The Beatles took to the stage. Ringo is also using another groups white Trixon drumset. I have another photo which shows a very early tan Vox amp to the right of the Gretsch amp which belonged to one of the other groups. There was quite a lot of equipment on that stage that night. Wish I could turn up that original Merseybeat ad that was in front of The Beatles that night. I did see the original plaque that was presented to The Beatles that night. It's at The Hard Rock Cafe in London. Peter, those knobs do look like Lennon's radio knobs he used on V81. That guitar is a Kay which they called a Red Devil model. We'll have to keep an eye out for one of those.

[admin]

Thanks for your comments regarding the Beatles' gear Larry. As photos help us, at the same time they may also mislead.

Notwithstanding what Chris Huston has said about Lennon finding one set of knobs in an electronics store, it has always made more sense to me that he would choose cool looking knobs that he had see on another instrument.

The detectives are on the case.

[admin]

Thanks Larry, the knobs on this Kay Red Devil from a 1960s ad seem more and more like the set that Lennon used for a period.

[admin]

Do you suppose Hessy's Music sold Kay guitars?