FIRST IT WAS BECK, NOW IT'S "BLACKIE"...

kcole4001 · Post by **kcole4001** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:43 am

Perhaps Pete Townsend models should have the necks snapped off, with the option to have them reglued at extra expense.
Sorry, I agree that people have the perfect right to do whatever they wish (within legal constraints, of course) with their money, but going so far as duplicating the cigarette burns is just silly!

I've personally seen a fair number of vintage guitars (of course none of these were played by anyone famous) & most needed new pots, switches, pickups, & were missing a myriad of screws, etc.
Maybe that could be an option: semi-functional electronics, missing half of the screws, bridge rusted solid.

markbass99 · Post by **markbass99** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:48 am

Here's the only relic I'll probably ever own, a Feb. 73 4001 that looks really good on the front with all the "goodies" but has that drug down the street vibe on the back. I almost didn't buy it, the front kept telling me yes, the back kept telling me no. This is a true, honest, I'm a dumbass wearing a belt buckle(not me) type of relic-ing that I eventually accepted because after all, it really can't be seen when it's played. And how else are you going to see the skunk stripe on a jetglo, the exposed wood looks remarkably clean for thirty three years old. It also plays like a dream and has that tone that Chris Squire sold his soul to the devil for.(Just kidding Chris

)

henry5 · Post by **henry5** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:55 am

I was personally talking more about the general concept of relic-ing, but I guess it IS still up to the buyer, however ridiculous it may seem. I spent a great deal of money (which I'm still paying off!) on an Alembic bass which someone described as "the ugliest thing I've ever seen", but hey, it's my money and I like it. One thing I do wonder however, would an art fan be happy with a copy of a Degas or Monet? I suspect not, assuming they new it was a copy, and I think that's closer to the issue here.

henry5 · Post by **henry5** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:07 am

"New" it was a copy???? Was that some kind of Freudian slip???

Must say Mark, assuming I liked how the bass sounded and played, that wear wouldn't have put me off for a second.

dale_fortune · Post by **dale_fortune** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:51 am

The Fender Custom Shop is several buildings in Corona California almost the same size as the Rickenbacker Factory, nothing even close to the size of Rhode Island. What they do, they do well and their Bottom Line of thinking is: We build these because people/players/musicians/collectors want them and we are filling the demand of an historical part of musical instruments. They just take it to the max by replicating a famous persons instrument. I am not defending what they do, I just accept the fact that this is their business and the direction they have taken. I know quite a few of the workers there and they are craftsmen at their trade who take pride in what they do. Art Work is the same. There are many many copies of the Masters that can be bought at a fraction of the price of an original. They hang on walls world wide to be looked at and appreciated, this is pretty much the same concept as a Fender Relic.

henry5 · Post by **henry5** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:25 am

I think the bottom line for me is we buy things because we like them, assuming we can afford them. I like Rickenbacker basses, so when I can, I buy them. I also prefer them in certain finishes, and there are certain things that make me more likely to prefer a particular instrument. As we see every day on the Forum, everyone has different ideas about what is and isn't "right" in an instrument. What turns me on may put someone else off. I'm not sure I see a great deal of point in criticism of this, because as Dale says, there is obviously a market for these guitars. Personally I can't imagine why anyone would want to buy a brand new USA Fender Jazz with the non-tinted neck, as it's about the least tactile instrument I've ever seen; I see one and think "no, I don't even want to pick that up", and for me it's all about what makes me want to pick an instrument up. If all you're going to do is hang it on the wall then for me it's lost its whole purpose anyway. But who cares what I think? All I know is what works for me. There are far more worrying things happening in the world on a daily basis. Heck, I just wish I could afford one (not that I'd buy one, but that much money buys a heck of a lot of Cantonese food and ice cream...). I'd still only want an original Degas though. Actually forget that, it'd be too terrifying!

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:32 am

OK, Dale, but to me it's the same sort of pseudo-
"historic" drek that makes the Disney parks such a draw.

See my bottom line..."sells well" does not equate to "excellent" in anything but dollars and cents.

Nothing wrong with profit in a capitalistic society.

However, Fender twists this repeatedly and sells us this schlock as art (and prices it as "fine art!"), and besides the ugliness and lack of integrity of a faked replica, this cynicism is what really turns me off.

To further "work" the fine art metaphor, Shaun, if 185 replicas of a Degas or Monet sold for 24 times the price of an original, it would be considered either fraud or the apex of silliness.

The original (a Strat) is a superb example of innovative industrial design in both concept and execution. It is our cultural fixation with celebrity that turns us into media whores and consumers of this type of junk.

j_gary · Post by **j_gary** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:20 am

Paul, while I agree that the whole relic thing is lost on me, particularly at the prices they are asking, I think I could be hooked by the process via Rickenbacker. I must admit if RIC made an exact replica of Lennon's 325 as it exists, or McCartney's Pepper bass, (does it still exist?), I might bite.

At 24K, not so much.

dale_fortune · Post by **dale_fortune** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:32 am

It was a Cowboy/Country Western Singer/Picker (Merle Travis) along with help of Paul Bigsby who took the original 1800's Martin peg head design and turned it into a solid body guitar in the late 40's that resembled a Stratocaster. Then Leo, who was a tinkerer much like "Doc" Kauffman, took Freddie Taveras's body designs along with a much improved Kauffman Vibrola, and the Stratocaster was born. The Strat almost died in the late 50's, it wasn't selling until 1961 with the birth of Surf Music it took off again. Then Hendrix came around in the late 60's for a rebirth of the Strat. It has proven to be a time tested guitar that will be around for a long long time.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:32 am

Why not do the Lennon thing yourself?

Lennon was no pro, so it would be within the skill set of the average Joe...

You're probably saying, "No way!" to yourself.

So, I'd ask, "Why not?" and you'd say something like, "Why screw up a perfectly good guitar that I paid $2K for?"

To which I'd reply: "Exactly my point, Gary!"

Dale, you'll get no static from me on that excellent history lesson, or on its conclusion. I'd like to see the point that surf music saved the Strat expanded upon a bit more. I never looked at it that way.

Being in the Chicago hinterlands, I knew surf from records alone. Dick Dale played and plays his trademark Strat, true, and Alan Jardine played one in the Beach Boys, at least part time. It got to the point where I was thinking of a Strat as a rhythm guitar, which I know was wrong. But I've always associated surf with Jags and JMs.

Any thoughts to take this any further?

j_gary · Post by **j_gary** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:34 am

Great Paul, use logic and common sense to confuse me!

Shoot, how much for the real one? If I saved $100 a month I should have enough by.......?

dale_fortune · Post by **dale_fortune** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:40 am

Yeah..."Pipeline"..The greatest Surf song of all time..Spickard and Carman both from Santa Ana California, wrote and played Pipeline and many many other Surf songs on a Strat. That opening 2 Bars is pure Strat with Flat Wounds and a dripping wet Fender Reverb. The Ventures also used a Strat and a Jazz Master, though they were not considered a Surf Band, they did have a heavy influence on that era. Most every band in the So. Cal. area, and there were lots of them, played Strats for the Lead Guitar. Buddy Holly was one of the 1st Rockers to use a Strat, but after his death in early 59, it left a hole in the Strat. Most of the Country guys were playing Tele's and it wasn't until the early 60's when the Surf scene started to rise in So. Cal. that simple songs with heavy Reverb and the twang of a tremolo gave us 14 year old kids something we could relate to. Most of the studio players looked at a Fender as a toy guitar, they were playing the big bodied Gibson and Gretsch Guitars. Surf music was big in So. Cal. but the popularity of the Strat and it's economical price($289.00) with case, was affordable to young players parents. This brought on the rebirth of the guitar. Leo had almost considered dropping it from their line of guitars in 1962, Then after CBS bought the Comp. another transformation took place..Hendrix. The Strat was saved again and again and again thru this presnt day and time. Now we have all the Baby Boomers who sold their Strats long, replacing them with new/relics. Deja Vu or Get Back..I don't know cause I still have all my old Guitars.

dale_fortune · Post by **dale_fortune** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:43 am

OOPS I forgot about "WipeOut" by the Surfaris. Some consider this to be the ultimate surf song with it's breaking of drum sticks for the intro. They played a Strat also. Just another local So. Cal. group of surfer kids living the life style.

henry5 · Post by **henry5** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:28 am

To backtrack slightly, I completely agree re the Fine Art thing Paul. I guess the problem in this case is that it may be selling for 24 times the price of a Strat, but it's not selling for anything like the price of that particular Strat (i.e. the real Blackie). Thus, to those sufficiently enamoured, and sufficiently wealthy, in some ways it probably seems like a bargain. I, however, am obviously in the wrong job!!! If I had a any kind of skills in that direction whatsoever, I'd take up relic-ing....in fact I may have a cheese grater and a hammer somewhere....

Glad the point about Ric "replicas" was bought up, because I was just thinking about that. They would have no real interest to me, but I'm sure a few Forumites would jump on exact Beatles replicas. Although I suspect that Ric would (a) find the idea fairly ludicrous to begin with, and (b) even if they made them would not charge anything like $24,000 a piece, although I'm sure people would pay those prices.

As for my original/copy Fine Art analogy, I found myself about a half hour ago looking at a Waterhouse print sitting on my wall, and thought, hmm, ok, it's not the original, and so maybe my argument doesn't stand up. But at least it didn't cost me $24,000....more like $24 in fact. Me, cheap? As if....

Anyway, back to Dale's enlightening Surf history, which is a lot more interesting than anything I've posted so far!

dale_fortune · Post by **dale_fortune** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:37 am

I was one of those youngsters who grew up on the Beach surfing and playing surf guitar in a band. We used to open for most of the top name Surf Bands back in the early 60's. One of the finest/funnest times of my life. Then came the Beatles and I was transformed into a singer/songwriter..just couldn't get enough of that either.