Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

Maybe they're not really after Gibson. Maybe they're just after 'Good Ole' Henry. I'm sure he's made quite an enemies list over the years. Wasn't Juszkiewicz named the worst CEO in America, at one point?

Come on, there's other ways to show you don't like robot guitars

Anyway, the raid even spawned some articles that pretend to be humourous:

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/dburg ... rug-lords/

RIC_FACTORY wrote:http://landmarkreport.com/andrew/2011/0 ... can-donor/

Wait, is this article really suggesting that because someone donated $35K to a few politicians, they now command the Department of Justice?? That seems harder for me to believe than Gibson doing some slightly shady business with a wood importer and getting caught. Never mind the fact that Martin and Gibson aren't the only companies that use East Indian rosewood. That made it sound like they were competing for it like two countries fighting over some precious unobtainium.

I guess when you donate your money to a political cause there are usually some perks. From $10-10,000: a tee shirt and a delicious sea bass. $10-30K: a tote bag made of one million doll hairs. $30K or more: godlike command of the DoJ for whatever petty reason.

cassius987 wrote:Wait, is this article really suggesting that because someone donated $35K to a few politicians, they now command the Department of Justice?? That seems harder for me to believe than Gibson doing some slightly shady business with a wood importer and getting caught.

I think this is an excellent point. I believe it will be a long time before we have any real answers to this case.

Heard another news story about this on NPR radio this afternoon "All Things Considered".

NPR quoted the CEO of Gibson complaining about how unfair this is, that there is no legal forum for them to address the issue with the government, since no formal charges or anything legally has been made against them, and yet Gibson looses millions of dollars in the meantime, while their hands are tied.

NPR also was quoting somebody else, an expert on vintage guitars (didn't catch the name, he was not from Gibson) about the implications boiling over on the stove for everyone who owns vintage guitars of any kind because the "interpretation" of this legal provision is that it asserts legal liability and guilt onto anyone possessing a rosewood or ebony fretboard, no matter how or when or where the wood was harvested.

If this latter is true, this is indeed a problem of immense proportions for hundreds of thousands of citizens and demonstrates the absurdity of some of these Environmentalist authored laws, because the cure is often worse than the cause.

It will be interesting to see more come out in print about these implicatiosn on all guitar owners...

NPR quoted the CEO of Gibson complaining about how unfair this is, that there is no legal forum for them to address the issue with the government, since no formal charges or anything legally has been made against them, and yet Gibson looses millions of dollars in the meantime, while their hands are tied.

I personally don't put much stock in the government conspiracies espoused by some members of the the political spectrum. I was amused when someone told me today that a caller on the Rush Limbaugh Show mentioned the raid. It doesn't take much evidence to get people to totally buy into what they WANT to believe is reality. Let's get all the facts on the table before rushing to judgment and blaming the men in the black helicopters. However, the evidence MUST be presented soon, or the whole deal will start to smell pretty damn fishy.

NPR also was quoting somebody else, an expert on vintage guitars (didn't catch the name, he was not from Gibson) about the implications boiling over on the stove for everyone who owns vintage guitars of any kind because the "interpretation" of this legal provision is that it asserts legal liability and guilt onto anyone possessing a rosewood or ebony fretboard, no matter how or when or where the wood was harvested.

An article I read made the point that every time say, Tom Petty, crosses state lines on a tour, he is breaking the law if he is travelling with guitars made out of certain protected woods and he has no documentation of origin, genus and species, etc. Of course, that goes for all of you guys too! It doesn't even matter if your guitar was made 50 years ago in a country that no longer exists. The Lacey Act gets its authority from being under the auspices of the interstate commerce clause in the Constitution.

If this latter is true, this is indeed a problem of immense proportions for hundreds of thousands of citizens and demonstrates the absurdity of some of these Environmentalist authored laws, because the cure is often worse than the cause.

Ironically, the amendment was pushed by an Oregon congressman to protect American jobs by preventing foreign logging companies from harvesting illegal timber in their own countries that were undercutting jobs in his home state.

Thanks for the insights, Ben.

With all the implications under this Lacey Act for so many people who own musical instruments, this could escalate into a landmark case. I wonder if those enacting this action have a clue of how many hundreds of thousands of fretted instruments, manufactured over the decades, are now under this long-reach of the law ?

It's ironic that the intention was to protect American jobs. NPR was reporting that lots of people at Gibson are losing work...

NPR link:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2011 ... department

One one luthier's forum to which I subscribe, government conspiracy theories are flying fast and furiously. As if.

I'll avoid getting political here, but do wish Henry would keep to the point. He seems to be working to create enough confusion to allow whackos of all stripes to take home an ideological doggy-bag. Or maybe he's just that befuddled, naturally.

I vote for the latter.

"According to [The Lacey Act], if you bought a guitar from us and you resell it, you are criminally liable," stated Juszkiewicz. "Everyone who touches the product, the store owner who sells that guitar, is criminally liable. It doesn't matter whether you knew or not that there was some issue here. It's a pretty dangerous precedent in my opinion."

Coverage in the Calgary Herald adds that guitar owners who do not have proper documentation for their instrument could potentially face its confiscation if the Feds feel as though something about the guitar is in violation of the Lacey Act.

It does not matter if the guitar was produced in full accordance with the law -- if the government decides that some aspect of the guitar is in violation of the Lacey Act, it could theoretically seize it or any other wood-containing instrument at airports, country borders, and other areas, and even arrest the instrument owners in the process.

"Most people would say you have to know you did something wrong to do something wrong. This law says no, you don't have to have done anything wrong to be going to jail," added Juszkiewicz concerning the Lacey Act.

So there you have it. The US has literally devolved into an unbridled police state where the federal government freely raids companies, arrests innocent individuals, and performs other acts of domestic terrorism for absolutely no reason at all.

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"It’s worth pointing out that Henry E. Juszkiewicz, Gibson’s Chief Executive Officer, is a donor to a couple of Republican politicians. According to the Open Secrets database, Juszkiewicz donated $2000 to Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R-TN07) last year, as well as $1500 each to Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-TN). Juszkiewicz also has donated $10,000 to the Consumer Electronics Association, a PAC that contributed $92.5k to Republican candidates last year, as opposed to $72k to Democrats. (The CEA did, however, contribute more to Democrats in the 2008 election cycle.)
When warrants as ridiculous such as these are issued and executed, there appears no other reason than because the company or individual at hand is being targeted, not because there is any sort of wrongdoing. As a company, Gibson is a legendary. They’ve done nothing wrong, except, apparently, deigning to have a Republican CEO.
The plot thickens, however.
One of Gibson’s leading competitors is C.F. Martin & Company. The C.E.O., Chris Martin IV, is a long-time Democratic supporter, with $35,400 in contributions to Democratic candidates and the DNC over the past couple of election cycles. According to C.F. Martin’s catalog, several of their guitars contain “East Indian Rosewood.” In case you were wondering, that is the exact same wood in at least ten of Gibson’s guitars…"

The 2008 amendment was sponsored by both Democratic and Republican representatives. It also passed the Senate unanimously. In another bit of irony, Lamar Alexander, who received contributions from Gibson's CEO, BUT supported the amendment, is a Senator from what state? Oh right, Tennessee...

johnnysain wrote:"According to [The Lacey Act], if you bought a guitar from us...yadda yadda yadda... absolutely no reason at all.

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"It’s worth pointing out that Henry E. Juszkiewicz...yadda yadda yadda, etc... guitars…"

Thanks for the interpretation. You've just joined the ranks of the people I mentioned. Now, can we get off politics? My blood pressure meds are at home, 15 miles away.

johnnysain wrote:"Most people would say you have to know you did something wrong to do something wrong. This law says no, you don't have to have done anything wrong to be going to jail," added Juszkiewicz concerning the Lacey Act.

Actually, Henry's wrong about that. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. For any law, anywhere. And just when are the jackbooted thugs of our unbridled police state going to make the guy across the street mow his damn grass?

johnnysain wrote: "... According to C.F. Martin’s catalog, several of their guitars contain “East Indian Rosewood.” In case you were wondering, that is the exact same wood in at least ten of Gibson’s guitars…"

I have a Martin catalog from 2009 that lists both Brazillian and Madagascar Rosewood. The prices reflect these woods. The Brazillian Rosewood is validated by CITES.