Bent over a barrel in England??

scotty · Post by **scotty** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:06 pm

Oh the poor wee English bent over barrel..What a shame.

Ashgray · Post by **Ashgray** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:17 pm

Depends on the barrel, Scottie!

Ash

moleng1 · Post by **moleng1** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:21 pm

rickenbottom wrote: I,m not sure about L&M out in Vancouver but they dont sell RICS here in Ontario for list, at least not the ones I have purchased. My 2013 4003 $1799.00 and my 2013 330 $1675.00. I just checked the price list on the RIC website and the 660/12 list is $3100.00 as of January 1st 2014

Then I need to come to Ontario (heaven forbid!!!, lol) cuz we're getting no bargains out here on the left coast..................... New 330 out here is priced at $2200................

scotty · Post by **scotty** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:31 pm

redamber · Post by **redamber** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:31 pm

I've been somewhat dismayed at the direction this topic has taken over the past two weeks and have not felt inclined to comment - until now. There are lots of factors at play here and I suppose I could ramble on about the Rickenbacker production backlog, the unavoidable Freight costs, Import Duty & VAT (which together add about 25% - 30% to the ex-factory price), distributor costs & risks, the importance of emerging markets in China & the Far East (we are no longer as important here in Europe as we once were), etc, but I'll make just four observations:

Firstly, the RRP quoted by both the Rickenbacker Corporation in the US and Rosetti here in the UK are largely irrelevant. As John Hall has highlighted, in the long-run the market itself sets prices. Dealers have to shift stock and if there is no demand because products are 'over-priced', they stop selling. Dealers set their own prices and will often discount them further for cash deals. Ultimately, If Ric dealers do go out of business (as happened in the city near to where I live), it is the end-customer who is the real loser.

Rickenbacker is a high quality brand and this is reflected in not only the price of new Rics but also in the value of used Rics - again, a point made by John Hall. As someone who has accumulated a reasonable-sized collection of Rics, it suits me fine that the price of both new and used Rickenbackers here in the UK (of which England is only part!) remains high relative to the Fender/Gibson/PRS competition.

I cannot accept that there has been 'a recent emergence of lots of flawed or damaged new 'B' stock guitars now being sold by official dealers in the UK'. Every guitar manufacturer has the odd 'dodgy' instrument, but IMHO, the build quality of Rickenbacker guitars manufactured in the USA is still exceptional, being made from best-quality maple timbers and with outstanding set-up and playability - period!

Finally, I think it is unfortunate if some of the comments on this topic add to the perception that UK members of the RRF are a bunch of 'whingers'. I myself did a bit of this when I first joined the Forum - until I realized that this will not change anything, simply rubs people up the wrong way and is disrespectful to the many fine people who keep this Forum going. So, my advice to Tim is: Chill out, collect and enjoy these fantastic guitars, get to know some of the great people on the RRF (you never know when you might have to call on them for help) and never post on the Forum after midnight - and certainly never after you have had a few glasses of your favourite tipple!

moleng1 · Post by **moleng1** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:56 pm

redamber wrote:Rickenbacker is a high quality brand and this is reflected in not only the price of new Rics but also in the value of used Rics - again, a point made by John Hall. As someone who has accumulated a reasonable-sized collection of Rics, it suits me fine that the price of both new and used Rickenbackers here in the UK (of which England is only part!) remains high relative to the Fender/Gibson/PRS competition.

Not seem disrespectful here (which is usually followed by a disrespectful remark, lol) but it seems to me that your outlook on the situation may be a little skewed by the fact that you have a "reasonable-sized collection of Rics" Of course the current prices Rics there would "suit you just fine" as you have a lot to loose were Rics to start to sell in your neck of the woods at lower (by "lower" I mean reasonable!) price.

As the OP of this thread, I will say I don't live in England or Europe, but whenever I see the prices of European Rics on eBay and on line I can't help but feel sorry for new Ric buyers there, and that's coming from a Canadian, who also has to pay higher prices than his U.S. counterparts, but certainly nowhere near what those overseas pay??

As a side, I notice that whenever I see Rics from Japan for sale, they are more in line with U.S. prices, certainly shipping costs etc must be more to the far east than Europe???

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:19 pm

moleng1 wrote:As a side, I notice that whenever I see Rics from Japan for sale, they are more in line with U.S. prices, certainly shipping costs etc must be more to the far east than Europe???

I don't know how Japanese dealers decide on prices but I can tell you that freight to Japan is very competitive as compared to Europe.

Also, the duty imposed on electric guitars is zero- only a 5% consumption or commodity tax is charged.

The U.K duty rate is 3.7% with a whopping VAT of 20% on top of that. It's my understanding that VAT is also charged on all of those services involved with the importation, such as brokerage.

On the other hand, Japan sometimes has an unusual multilevel distribution system (which I understand is left over from the rice distribution days) where retailers belong to a group and buy from a sub-distributor which in turn buys from the distributor we appoint. But I think this practice is dying out.

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:27 pm

I just ran some numbers, which can do yourself at www.dutycalculator.com.

The landed cost, without any brokerage fees, handling, or local cartage, for a US$ 1000 guitar of average weight, is £781.66. That's with no profit yet to the importer, just what it costs him when the goods set down on the tarmac.

moleng1 · Post by **moleng1** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:34 pm

johnhall wrote:I just ran some numbers, which can do yourself at http://www.dutycalculator.com.

The landed cost, without any brokerage fees, handling, or local cartage, for a US$ 1000 guitar of average weight, is £781.66. That's with no profit yet to the importer, just what it costs him when the goods set down on the tarmac.

Wow!!! So it is the government that is raking in the cash!! 782 quid on a $1000 guitar??? That's $1288 U.S. dollars, WTF?? That's over 100% mark up???

antipodean · Post by **antipodean** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:08 pm

moleng1 wrote:
johnhall wrote:I just ran some numbers, which can do yourself at http://www.dutycalculator.com.

The landed cost, without any brokerage fees, handling, or local cartage, for a US$ 1000 guitar of average weight, is £781.66. That's with no profit yet to the importer, just what it costs him when the goods set down on the tarmac.
Wow!!! So it is the government that is raking in the cash!! 782 quid on a $1000 guitar??? That's $1288 U.S. dollars, WTF?? That's over 100% mark up???

You've got the wrong end of the stick there - the landed cost of GBP 781.66 is the cost of the guitar to the distributor (after duty and VAT), not an additional cost over the USD 1000 charged by the manufacturer.

As a rule of thumb the UK government take in duty and VAT is approximately 20% of the price you pay.

redamber · Post by **redamber** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:09 pm

moleng1 wrote:Not seem disrespectful here (which is usually followed by a disrespectful remark, lol) but it seems to me that your outlook on the situation may be a little skewed by the fact that you have a "reasonable-sized collection of Rics" Of course the current prices Rics there would "suit you just fine" as you have a lot to loose were Rics to start to sell in your neck of the woods at lower (by "lower" I mean reasonable!) price.

I'm breaking my own rule here by responding well after midnight, but I just wanted to clarify that my collection includes both 'new' and 'used' Rickenbackers acquired from all over the UK, Europe and the US - so I know full well what comparative new and used Ric prices are on each side of the pond. I have bought a number of Rics in the US and brought them in to Europe, but in truth this has been driven more by the wider availability of collectible Ric models in the US, rather than price. Even with the current rates of exchange ($1.65 : GBP£1), importation of new Rickenbacker guitars from the US is not really cost-effective, due to the cost of shipping/insurance and high rates of Duty & VAT.

As for 'having a lot to loose', I am pretty confident that I will not loose anything when the time comes to dispose of my collection (assuming my son does not claim it as part of his legacy!) - this is one of the upsides of investing in unusual, rare & discontinued models and colours of a manufacturer with an internationally-recognised brand and a world-wide reputation for quality. I have shown photos of some of my Rickenbacker guitars in my previous posts on the RRF.

cjj · Post by **cjj** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:04 pm

Just for grins, what's the going price for a 4003 in the UK these days?

scotty · Post by **scotty** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:40 pm

Roughly 1,650.00 GBP = 2,703.06 USD For a average 4003 Bass in the UK

cjj · Post by **cjj** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:59 pm

scotty wrote:Roughly 1,650.00 GBP = 2,703.06 USD For a average 4003 Bass in the UK

Well, you've got it a bit better than New Zealand where they list for $3591USD and sell for $3010USD...

scotty · Post by **scotty** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:00 pm

cjj wrote:
scotty wrote:Roughly 1,650.00 GBP = 2,703.06 USD For a average 4003 Bass in the UK
Well, you've got it a bit better than New Zealand where they list for $3591USD and sell for $3010USD...

Ive no interest in new anymore CJ

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