In Michelle, when Paul was singing, "I'll get to you somehow-a", I thought he was singing, "I caught you using power".
But that's why God invented sheet music....
What guitar on Day Tripper?
Jerry, thanks for your answer.
I checked again with my only Rickenbacker guitar 325V63 / 7.4KOhm toasters,
and, yes it could be the Miami, thought on Day Tripper it is unusually thin sounding. But if it is played with some high-boost device as Jo suggests, who knows...
Jerry , you could do me a favour:
with your C58, bridge pu, tone pot in fully cut position, with any Vox amp, bright channel:
is this the rhythm guitar sound of I want to hold your hand and Roll over Beethoven?
And to complicate the Day Tripper guitar discussion further, there's a Photo by Bob Whitacker:
Rehearsals for the Beatles Christmas Show 65,
John with a Strat and George with a 345
I checked again with my only Rickenbacker guitar 325V63 / 7.4KOhm toasters,
and, yes it could be the Miami, thought on Day Tripper it is unusually thin sounding. But if it is played with some high-boost device as Jo suggests, who knows...
Jerry , you could do me a favour:
with your C58, bridge pu, tone pot in fully cut position, with any Vox amp, bright channel:
is this the rhythm guitar sound of I want to hold your hand and Roll over Beethoven?
And to complicate the Day Tripper guitar discussion further, there's a Photo by Bob Whitacker:
Rehearsals for the Beatles Christmas Show 65,
John with a Strat and George with a 345
Wolfgang, a friend and I do a lot of goofing around trying to replicate the Beatles sounds in recordings. We are both total "rock star" amatuers, but being former (me) and current (him) radio DJs, we have at least a rudimentary knowledge of sound and how to put things together. And we're both totally anal and obsessive in trying to get the "right" sound. I guess that's pretty pathetic for a couple of 50-somethings, but hey, it keeps me happy and my wife knows where I am at night.
All that being said, the sounds I feel I am getting out of my 325C58 (bridge pickup) sound like "Hand" and "Beethoven" and especially "I Saw Her Standing There" (among a LOT of others). I don't know that he used the tone pot much. Again, obviously I was not there, and I don't have access to the tons of videos and bootlegs that others do to analyze every pickstroke. Most of the tones I think I can recreate on the 325C58 have more to do with his playing style than where the tone pot was set.
Again, my opinion....but, we've done a lot of work on "Hand", which is a trickier song to duplicate than it sounds. On "Hand" I think he's playing just the low E-A-D strings during the verses. My favorite parts are the 2 middle 8s where Lennon and McCartney are hitting the notes in unison -- kind of a bum-bu-bum pattern. The combo of the 325 and the Hofner together is VERY solid. In the recordings my buddy and I have done together, I feel like we nailed it. (Admittedly, I'm probably not being objective as I can be, but I still think it's darn close.) And I think Lennon achieved that sound by leaving the tone pot up all the way on treble and just chopped away on the bass strings.
I think the same is true for "Beethoven", although we haven't yet played with that one. It does have the same tone.
Where he does achieve a real, what I call a "trademark" Lennon tone, is in "I Saw Her Standing There" and "She Loves You". Again, I don't think he messed with the tone pots. But this time, he's chopping primarily on the high strings to get that real "cutting" sound.
The reason I don't think he's cuts the tone pot down is because to me, doing that sounds like it's muffling and diffusing all of the sound. I think by leaving the tone setting all the way on treble and just hitting the bass strings, it preserves the string "attack", for want of a better term, that seems to me to be prevalent in Lennon's work.
The other thing that makes a BIG difference in the tone of the guitars is the use of compression on the recording. The Beatles had the use of Fairchild compressors, which gave a LOT of body to the guitar tones. Now, I certainly don't have Fairchilds. I just have compression effects in my PC recording software. But I couldn't believe the difference recording the Ric and hearing it live, and then mixed with the bass through a compressor. It's just a night-and-day difference. Now, if you don't have a separate compressor, or compression software, you can also get the effect through a lot of the modeling amps. On my Vox AD30VT, one of the 11 effects setting is "Compression". That setting sounds dynamite on both my 325 and my '80 360-12. It REALLY makes a Ric stand out.
Boy, reading this back, I see a lot of "It seems to me", "in my opinion", etc. I know there's lots o' knowledgeable dudes and dudettes out here, and I make no claim to being the expert. As they say, Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV). So, youse guys that have "nailed" the sounds a different way, don't hurt me, just relating my own experiences.
Anyway, that's one old cowboy's opinions and experiences trying to capture the Fabs' sounds.
All that being said, the sounds I feel I am getting out of my 325C58 (bridge pickup) sound like "Hand" and "Beethoven" and especially "I Saw Her Standing There" (among a LOT of others). I don't know that he used the tone pot much. Again, obviously I was not there, and I don't have access to the tons of videos and bootlegs that others do to analyze every pickstroke. Most of the tones I think I can recreate on the 325C58 have more to do with his playing style than where the tone pot was set.
Again, my opinion....but, we've done a lot of work on "Hand", which is a trickier song to duplicate than it sounds. On "Hand" I think he's playing just the low E-A-D strings during the verses. My favorite parts are the 2 middle 8s where Lennon and McCartney are hitting the notes in unison -- kind of a bum-bu-bum pattern. The combo of the 325 and the Hofner together is VERY solid. In the recordings my buddy and I have done together, I feel like we nailed it. (Admittedly, I'm probably not being objective as I can be, but I still think it's darn close.) And I think Lennon achieved that sound by leaving the tone pot up all the way on treble and just chopped away on the bass strings.
I think the same is true for "Beethoven", although we haven't yet played with that one. It does have the same tone.
Where he does achieve a real, what I call a "trademark" Lennon tone, is in "I Saw Her Standing There" and "She Loves You". Again, I don't think he messed with the tone pots. But this time, he's chopping primarily on the high strings to get that real "cutting" sound.
The reason I don't think he's cuts the tone pot down is because to me, doing that sounds like it's muffling and diffusing all of the sound. I think by leaving the tone setting all the way on treble and just hitting the bass strings, it preserves the string "attack", for want of a better term, that seems to me to be prevalent in Lennon's work.
The other thing that makes a BIG difference in the tone of the guitars is the use of compression on the recording. The Beatles had the use of Fairchild compressors, which gave a LOT of body to the guitar tones. Now, I certainly don't have Fairchilds. I just have compression effects in my PC recording software. But I couldn't believe the difference recording the Ric and hearing it live, and then mixed with the bass through a compressor. It's just a night-and-day difference. Now, if you don't have a separate compressor, or compression software, you can also get the effect through a lot of the modeling amps. On my Vox AD30VT, one of the 11 effects setting is "Compression". That setting sounds dynamite on both my 325 and my '80 360-12. It REALLY makes a Ric stand out.
Boy, reading this back, I see a lot of "It seems to me", "in my opinion", etc. I know there's lots o' knowledgeable dudes and dudettes out here, and I make no claim to being the expert. As they say, Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV). So, youse guys that have "nailed" the sounds a different way, don't hurt me, just relating my own experiences.
Anyway, that's one old cowboy's opinions and experiences trying to capture the Fabs' sounds.
Jerry: I agree that the role of compression in a number of Beatle recordings was central to the sound. It is another factor to seriously consider when attempting to replicate the Beatles' sound.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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That's excellent stuff Jerry! I'm pretty much in the same boat as you (50 with a wife happy her hubby is plucking away in the basement). I record with my 320JG and have been cranking out various Beatle recordings trying to get close to that sound. It is very cool to get a guitar or bass riff down and mix it to the point it is sounding very close. The one variation I make when mixing is that I don't try to make the mix sound the same as the original mono. I separate the instruments in the stereo image thinking they would have done that if they had stereo in '63/'64.
I totally agree with you about John's variations in playing style affecting his sound rather than fiddling with the knobs. IMO the only fiddling John did with knobs was to snap some spares on them after knockin' them off every night onstage in Hamburg. I'm positive (again IMHO) he had all the dials up full.
I'm working on those amazing triplets in "All My Loving" and to catch the sound you have to WATCH him play it rather than listen. I'm watching his Ed Sullivan performances very carefully for his pick placement and wrist/hand motion. I'm trying to duplicate it by only strumming the center 4 strings (changes slightly on the D and E chords).
What an amazing rhythm guitarist John was... awesome timing!
I totally agree with you about John's variations in playing style affecting his sound rather than fiddling with the knobs. IMO the only fiddling John did with knobs was to snap some spares on them after knockin' them off every night onstage in Hamburg. I'm positive (again IMHO) he had all the dials up full.
I'm working on those amazing triplets in "All My Loving" and to catch the sound you have to WATCH him play it rather than listen. I'm watching his Ed Sullivan performances very carefully for his pick placement and wrist/hand motion. I'm trying to duplicate it by only strumming the center 4 strings (changes slightly on the D and E chords).
What an amazing rhythm guitarist John was... awesome timing!
2006 Rickenbacker 360/12FG
2005 Rickenbacker 4003FG
1981 Rickenbacker 320JG
2004 Larrivee L05
2005 Yamaha FG720-12
2006 Epiphone Casino
2004 Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster
2003 LaPatie Etude Classical
1968 Yamaha FG150 Red Label
2005 Rickenbacker 4003FG
1981 Rickenbacker 320JG
2004 Larrivee L05
2005 Yamaha FG720-12
2006 Epiphone Casino
2004 Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster
2003 LaPatie Etude Classical
1968 Yamaha FG150 Red Label
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karl_teten
- Intermediate Member
- Posts: 552
- Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:09 pm
Karl, didn't know that, thanks. I had always heard that "She Loves You" was the first song George used the Gent on, but didn't know about John and the J160E. I'll take your word for it, but it still sounds to me like the Ric. There's one particular piece that sounds so much to me like the 325 -- the third verse, after the first line "You know it's up to you..." it sounds like John just really hits it with a couple of quick strokes that really cut through. It definitely doesn't sound like the Gent, but I suppose with a lot of treble thru a Top Boost, it could've been the Gibson.
So, if that's true, that's the second time that guitar has fooled me. For years, I would have NEVER thought that he used the J-160E on "I Feel Fine", but darned if he didn't.
Douglas -- I've had a lot of trouble with the "All My Loving" triplets too. It's tough to keep it up all the way thru the 3rd verse -- unless you've got really good wrist muscles. I now understand why John never sang the on that one (well, except the "ooohhs"). You can't possibly concentrate on vocals and that guitar part.
One other thing, if you're used to trying to cop some of the licks off of videos: I know it's been mentioned before on this forum, but there is an excellent set of video by Rob Taylor called "Beatles To A Tee" at http://www.to-a-tee.tv/. Terrific stuff, and Rob makes an effort to use the same guitars (in his opinion) that were used on the recordings. And so far (in MY opinion) he pretty much nails it.
Rob's videos are ALSO the reason I had to convince my wife that I absolutely HAD to have all of these guitars if I was going to do this right! So now I have my 325, Gent, Tenny, Casino, Strat, Tele, Gretsch DuoJet, Epi EJ-160E, etc etc. ("Honey, I just can NOT get this song completely right until I order that Framus Hootenanny!" Some days she is easier to convince than others...)
And oh yeah, I also make them stereo instead of mono. And if I do run across a later one that was released in stereo, I'll try to duplicate the stereo separation -- EXCEPT if it's that Capitol "Duophonic" fake stereo effect. Yuck. Those are the versions I grew up with, yeah, but if I'm going do this little project, I'm going to do it with a little "what if they had today's techniques back then".
So, if that's true, that's the second time that guitar has fooled me. For years, I would have NEVER thought that he used the J-160E on "I Feel Fine", but darned if he didn't.
Douglas -- I've had a lot of trouble with the "All My Loving" triplets too. It's tough to keep it up all the way thru the 3rd verse -- unless you've got really good wrist muscles. I now understand why John never sang the on that one (well, except the "ooohhs"). You can't possibly concentrate on vocals and that guitar part.
One other thing, if you're used to trying to cop some of the licks off of videos: I know it's been mentioned before on this forum, but there is an excellent set of video by Rob Taylor called "Beatles To A Tee" at http://www.to-a-tee.tv/. Terrific stuff, and Rob makes an effort to use the same guitars (in his opinion) that were used on the recordings. And so far (in MY opinion) he pretty much nails it.
Rob's videos are ALSO the reason I had to convince my wife that I absolutely HAD to have all of these guitars if I was going to do this right! So now I have my 325, Gent, Tenny, Casino, Strat, Tele, Gretsch DuoJet, Epi EJ-160E, etc etc. ("Honey, I just can NOT get this song completely right until I order that Framus Hootenanny!" Some days she is easier to convince than others...)
And oh yeah, I also make them stereo instead of mono. And if I do run across a later one that was released in stereo, I'll try to duplicate the stereo separation -- EXCEPT if it's that Capitol "Duophonic" fake stereo effect. Yuck. Those are the versions I grew up with, yeah, but if I'm going do this little project, I'm going to do it with a little "what if they had today's techniques back then".
Jerry and Douglas, my age is 51, were are on the same wavelength.
My first record I bought was "I want to hold your hand / Roll over Beethoven".
Both songs with that unique rhythm guitar sound.
To me, there are four different 325/Hamburg sounds:
1) Intro of Cry for a shadow. No comment...
2) the standard sound: I saw her standing there: bridge pu, tone pot fully on. Great! Same on She loves you (Karl, it sounds so 325ish?).
3) Neck pu only (middle pu disconnected)
on All my loving (is THIS right, Karl?)
and 4) I want to hold your hand/Roll over Beethoven: neck pu with tone pot in cut position.
The only useful sound with tone pot fully closed because the Hamburg pickups are so low ohmic.
But I am not too sure about it.
And I'm afraid there is no 325C58 here in Berlin
to prove it.
My guitars are a 325V63 with 7.5kOhms Toasters,
a korean Casino ( Solo on Michelle: neck pu and
tone pot fully cut, right?) and a travel guitar
Hofner "Shorty" with fully Gibson scale length.
and one bridge humbucker(and ****** Schaller tuners/second or third choice). And a Hofner "shorty" short scale bass.
As far as I can see, Lennon used his 325/Miami exclusively with the bridge pu, because the sound
of the neck and middle pu connected is too hollow especially on a short scale guitar. But the bridge pu was good for many songs from "You can't do that" to "She's a woman"
My first record I bought was "I want to hold your hand / Roll over Beethoven".
Both songs with that unique rhythm guitar sound.
To me, there are four different 325/Hamburg sounds:
1) Intro of Cry for a shadow. No comment...
2) the standard sound: I saw her standing there: bridge pu, tone pot fully on. Great! Same on She loves you (Karl, it sounds so 325ish?).
3) Neck pu only (middle pu disconnected)
on All my loving (is THIS right, Karl?)
and 4) I want to hold your hand/Roll over Beethoven: neck pu with tone pot in cut position.
The only useful sound with tone pot fully closed because the Hamburg pickups are so low ohmic.
But I am not too sure about it.
And I'm afraid there is no 325C58 here in Berlin
to prove it.
My guitars are a 325V63 with 7.5kOhms Toasters,
a korean Casino ( Solo on Michelle: neck pu and
tone pot fully cut, right?) and a travel guitar
Hofner "Shorty" with fully Gibson scale length.
and one bridge humbucker(and ****** Schaller tuners/second or third choice). And a Hofner "shorty" short scale bass.
As far as I can see, Lennon used his 325/Miami exclusively with the bridge pu, because the sound
of the neck and middle pu connected is too hollow especially on a short scale guitar. But the bridge pu was good for many songs from "You can't do that" to "She's a woman"
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karl_teten
- Intermediate Member
- Posts: 552
- Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:09 pm
If you listen carefully and dissect 'She Loves You' you will hear the J160E acoustic. Lennon used it electrically with an unwound G string (I have a photo from this session). The vocal mic picked up the guitar acoustically.
It's hard to believe but true. Most of the LP 'Please Please Me' was recorded the same way with the J160E.
For the unique tonal variations Lennon was able to get on his '58 325.....
1) Toggle up = Middle & Bridge PUs
2) Toggle up (cutting Bridge PU volume) = Middle PU alone
3) Toggle in the middle = Bridge PU alone
4) Toggle down = Neck & Bridge PUs
5) Toggle down (cutting Bridge PU volume) = Neck PU alone
This wiring was researched by Glen Lambert and found in several rare '58 325's. These toggle positions explain Lennon's odd toggle choices you see him playing with up to February 1964.
Most photos I have show Lennon using either toggle down or middle position with his second '64 325. Those tones would be either bridge or all three pickups.
It's hard to believe but true. Most of the LP 'Please Please Me' was recorded the same way with the J160E.
For the unique tonal variations Lennon was able to get on his '58 325.....
1) Toggle up = Middle & Bridge PUs
2) Toggle up (cutting Bridge PU volume) = Middle PU alone
3) Toggle in the middle = Bridge PU alone
4) Toggle down = Neck & Bridge PUs
5) Toggle down (cutting Bridge PU volume) = Neck PU alone
This wiring was researched by Glen Lambert and found in several rare '58 325's. These toggle positions explain Lennon's odd toggle choices you see him playing with up to February 1964.
Most photos I have show Lennon using either toggle down or middle position with his second '64 325. Those tones would be either bridge or all three pickups.
Karl,
listened again to 'She loves you'. O.K.
And I listened to 'Sie liebt dich', and,
although (re)recorded much later in Paris, the
rhythm guitar sounds like the J160E (electrically), not as bright as in 'She loves you' but similar to 'Twist and shout', to mention just one. So I think you are again right with 'She loves you'
Well, with Glen's wiring it was probably your #1 position at 'Cry for a shadow', your #3 for 'I saw her standing there and #5 for `'All my loving'?
And we got rid of this 'disconnection of the middle pu'- discussion. And we understand why some luthiers were puzzled with the wiring of this guitar.
btw: how is the wiring of the 325C58
and how was the wiring of Lennon's Miami? Like the V63 ?
listened again to 'She loves you'. O.K.
And I listened to 'Sie liebt dich', and,
although (re)recorded much later in Paris, the
rhythm guitar sounds like the J160E (electrically), not as bright as in 'She loves you' but similar to 'Twist and shout', to mention just one. So I think you are again right with 'She loves you'
Well, with Glen's wiring it was probably your #1 position at 'Cry for a shadow', your #3 for 'I saw her standing there and #5 for `'All my loving'?
And we got rid of this 'disconnection of the middle pu'- discussion. And we understand why some luthiers were puzzled with the wiring of this guitar.
btw: how is the wiring of the 325C58
and how was the wiring of Lennon's Miami? Like the V63 ?
Hmmm! this last page kinda strayed from Day Tripper. I don't think that Day Tripper is a Vox amp at all but the blonde Bassman.
There is not one guitar in the signature riff. But two. One is clean no distortion, no tube breakup. Since the Tennessean, the Ric, nor the Strat do not have the power to begin a break up early on the Bassman or Vox for that matter it could have been any of those doing the clean part but not the overdriven part.
A 335 style Gibson with its big humbuckers would have easily given the opening riff its overdrive though and since one was available. That pretty much has to be it.
There is not one guitar in the signature riff. But two. One is clean no distortion, no tube breakup. Since the Tennessean, the Ric, nor the Strat do not have the power to begin a break up early on the Bassman or Vox for that matter it could have been any of those doing the clean part but not the overdriven part.
A 335 style Gibson with its big humbuckers would have easily given the opening riff its overdrive though and since one was available. That pretty much has to be it.